Trauma Bonds, DARVO & Emotional Abuse with Catherine Anne Castillo I Ep. 142

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hi Warriors, welcome to Beyond the Statistics. I'm your host, Ingrid. We all take different paths as we rebuild our lives after abuse. My guest today chose to dive in and learn more about personalities and what makes us who we are. She used what she learned to rebuild both her career and her sense of self while also finding a way to help others. An author at heart, she wrote In the Darkness of Shards, Poems from a Broken Place. Here's Catherine to share her story and what she's learned. Hi, Catherine. Thank you so much for joining me. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Doing great. It's Friday night here. It's 1011. I'm usually sleeping at this time, but like on Fridays, I really just want to be, you know, lenient and generous with my schedule. And I've been really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you for having me, Ingrid.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

I have been looking forward to this as well. And I really appreciate it. I don't know how mentally okay I would be at 10, 11 o'clock at night for myself. So I really do appreciate you accommodating this time. Before we get into our conversation, can you just share a little bit about yourself so listeners can get to know you some?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Sure. You know, whenever I get into podcasts and I, you know, they instruct me to tell me about myself, it's actually the hardest part for me because I just do a lot of things. So maybe I could start off by saying that I'm a multi-passionate or a multi-hyphenate. So this is the kind of person that has like several passions and professions. And it just stems down from being experiential, you know, like living life to the fullest and all that. So I can start off by saying that currently I'm a co-founder and I hold directorial roles for certain startups here, specific startups here in the Philippines and in Singapore. I'm also a healthcare professional. So I'm a nurse, I'm a clinical I'm a relational trauma clinician and a certified women's health specialist. And I am the author of the book. Um, I am an author rather of this poetry collection called In the Darkness of Shards, Poems from a Book and Place. I have published this book, um, I think it was around December 2024. So it's I think it's closer to two years now. And the the book is basically a collection of stories or poems um depicting the life that I had in my previous chapter. So there, and as of what I'm doing right now, so that's like my job, right? As of the things that I'm doing right now for fun or my current passions, basically to have a lot of hobbies, I just have to stop it because um two weeks from now I'll be joining a warm-up competition for bikini bodybuilding. It's gonna be my first time. So this is actually the first, I think this is the perfect time that I could give a disclaimer. I'm a bit foggy and spotty, but very active and very alive. Like I really love the conversation that we're about to get into. But just saying that I do have brain fog right now. I'm also 39 years young. Um, I have been diagnosed PCOS and IBSC when I was in my early 20s. And so, you know, the hormonal symptoms, it's something that I've also been experiencing. So I could definitely say I'm already in the very menopause territory. So there's a lot of things there. But yes, that's um, oh, and I just want to share that I was supposed to be an Ingrid.

Catherine’s Work And Personal Reset

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yes, you were. I was supposed to be an Ingrid. I have to inject that. Um, before my parents named me Catherine, they were looking into the first option, which was an Ingrid, like Ingrid. Um, but I guess they just changed it for whatever reason. I like Ingrid a lot. And so when I met you, I'm like, oh, she's an Ingrid. And she's also, you're part, you're you're half Filipino, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

I'm half Filipino, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

So there you go. Um, so there's like a um just a summary of who I am, what I do, what I love, and I'm happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

You know, I think maybe the world realized that it couldn't handle two Ingrids. So maybe, maybe that's why you you became a Catherine. I'm I my sister actually just asked me the other day if I have ADD. And I'm 49, so it would be a very late diagnosis of ADD. And she's just she said, because I have so many things going on in my life. And she'll say, What are you thinking about? And I'm like, everything. I'm thinking about everything. I have so many things going on. I'm also a nurse, so there are a lot of similarities. A lot of similarities between us. And uh one of the similarities is unfortunately the similarity of domestic violence. And uh you're here to share actually because you have so many things going on, there's a lot for you to share with all of us. So are you are you ready? Yes, I'm ready because I and listeners, are you ready? Are you ready to buckle up?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

So I I actually I mean, I I I didn't really make any notes as well. So, but as we talk, like I'm getting a lot of things to, you know, like pointers that I could talk about. And I actually got the first one right now because he said that, you know, we have commonalities and it's kind of it boils down to like something unfortunate, right? And I want to point out the trauma bond as a term. I mean, this is common with our community of emotional, you know, like abusers, uh, abuse um survivors, rather. Um, people think trauma bond is a bonding, is a form of bonding between survivors or people who have experienced the same experience. And I really want to correct that as a clinician because that's not what it means. It basically means the attachment you form towards your abuser because of the cycles that you went through with this person. So I think I want to start off with that.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

That thank you so much for clarifying that because I know there are

Trauma Bond And Twin Flame Myths

SPEAKER_00 6:32

some people out there that understand the true definition of trauma bond, but there is that confusion as well. And there is a bond between survivors, but it's not it's not that term. It's not that term.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

So when people say like, oh, we bonded because of our trauma, hence it's like trauma, but I'm like, no, that's not what it means here.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

No, that's that's just a kick-ass community, is what that is.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yes, yes, it's it's it's that one. Um, yes, I just want to start by saying that um, you know, in our community, trauma bond is a very common term. And I I mean, have you heard of like twin flames as well?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I have heard of that, but why don't you clarify that? Because I've heard a couple different meanings for that too.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yes, because like they say, like, you know, when you have twin flames, it means that you know, you felt like chemistry at first, love at first sight, and it's just so chaotic and you know, romantic, you know, the this kind of feeling, right? And then this attachment that you feel towards a person. But as a clinician, again, I'm gonna talk more on the look, don't get me wrong, I'm a spiritual person, I'm more on the spiritual rather than the religious side. But on the medical side, because we are healthcare professionals, I want to say that you know, when people talk about soulmates or twin flames, um it's pretty much similar. It's kind of like a romanticized version of being tied to your abuser. Does I mean this does that meet make sense? Because the the way that you describe this is it's technically being held hostage by your abuser. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Um I want to tack on to that because I think a when you see a lot of similarities in the beginning of the relationship between you and your abuser, that's because your abuser, a lot of the times they mirror you and they find out what you want, and so they're going to want the same thing. And I noticed with mine, he would even like our food choices were very similar, music, like everything. And I just kept thinking, this is crazy. How could I find the one person in the world that has so many similarities to me?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

And uh again, so I mean, this is a conversation I can talk about it. There's actually a reason why that's how they operate. I mean, it can be consciously, it can be subconsciously, right? Um I think these I'm gonna call them individuals. Okay, so these individuals they are more focused on being liked. That is their standard for when you date out there, if you think about it, when you date out there, you are looking for your perfect person, or you are looking for the person that would compliment you, the person who will, you know, love you in a way that you want to be loved. But in in the case of these type of individuals, they are more into being liked. And so they study subconsciously, and like you said, they they mirror you, right? But it's a cycle. Actually, there's this cycle called mirror cycle, but I can explain that later. Um, but yes, at the start, I remember my um my then partner, he wasn't into poetry. Okay, this is how we're gonna start with a book, right? Um I had I love writing, I'm an introvert, and so I have my own, you know, world. And ever since I was, let's let's say in high school, I I love to write. I love to write. I'm very cerebral, cerebral cerebral. And I showed my work to one of my closest friends then, and they were like, why don't you write a book? Because actually, this has like substance. And I'm like, that time I was thinking, you know, I find it very sacred because it's like your thoughts, and you're free from judgment, you're free from any bias. It's just you, you know, just being you and your thoughts. I said, okay, maybe not. Um, and he found out because you know, we were getting to know each other, and he started and he he he's also a writer, by the way. So he's also an author. I don't want to like deal into like the things he does, but he's also an author. What he actually what I actually found out when I started, you know, visiting his home was like he had poetry books he recently bought at the time that we were dating, he recently bought poetry books in order to know the poets, in order to he even memorized a poem for me. Like it was all about, if you think about it, it was all about me being um feeling safe. And the only way sometimes for us to feel safe is to find those similarities. So subconsciously, he might be thinking, I want her to like me by being like her. And this is what you call mirroring, like you said, right? And then there's this other layer wherein you feel, oh my gosh, I feel so emotionally safe with him because like he's sharing all his secrets, he's you know, telling you about his life, like really bombarding you with all the information. So, what I learned in school is that there's this term called um empathy fishing. I'm not sure if you've heard of this.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

I have not.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

So, empathy fishing is when a person gauges your response or your reply to certain vulnerable situations to gauge your capacity to tolerate them. So, like, let's say I tell you like first date, oh my god, my ex is like so crazy. Okay, this happened like in real life. Oh my god, is my ex is like so crazy? And you know, I kind of like cheated on her a bit, etc. And then you play a response, something like, Oh, that's okay, that's in the past. I'm sure like you've changed, or you're you know, you're a changed person. So, what I actually show is the value of exceptionalism. So, what is exceptionalism? Exceptionalism is a fault, is a is it's actually a flaw and a blessing for humans. It's like we think that this time he's

Mirroring And Empathy Fishing Tactics

SPEAKER_01 12:42

he's gonna change. I'm different, so he's gonna treat me different. This time it's gonna be better. This is exceptionalism. So once they kind of like pick up that okay, this person might tolerate me for my future inconveniences for her, like cheating, or calling her crazy, or you know, minimizing her, etc. They kind of gauge it. Again, this is subconsciously for other people, and some people like they're outright manipulative, they know what they're doing, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

So yeah, I'm not sure if you heard of this, but I hadn't, and but that makes sense because as humans, we want to believe in the best of other humans. We want to believe that everyone is a good person.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

You don't mind I'm actually also curious, like, how did you and I mean, let's say just a subject that you have in your head, like start. Was it the same? Was it more oh like the universe brought us together?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

You know, kind of uh for me, I don't know. I'm trying to think. At that point in my life, I don't know if I believed in actual soulmates. So it wasn't anything super profound of wow, I f I met my soulmate, but it was, I was personally taken aback by how many similarities there were. And I thought, well, you know what? Maybe there is like one person, or you know, maybe a handful of people that are the perfect match for you. And I happened to find one. So I did think I didn't go into the relationship thinking there were soulmates, but when we began the relationship, I thought, wow, this is somebody that's you know is like one in a million, one in a trillion, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, no, that's good. Actually, I did not start as well, like thinking about it in the same way. In fact, I there was a nickname that he gave me, and of course I can share it here. It's called um catifying things, and that actually means you are a nurse. I am a scientist, like we are in the science department, and so we like let's say he was like, Oh, your eyes are so um beautiful, it's like I've never seen before. And I said, Yeah, that's corneal arcos. I'm not sure if you've seen my eyes, but so my eyes has um, you know, like he tends to make things so romantic, and I'm this walled off. You know what I mean? And I feel that became a challenge, and that be that became attractive. So, so yes, I think for for people like them, we are props. Yes, like we we are props to the image that they want to believe in themselves, that people should think of them.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

And so sorry, you no, I no, I'm agreeing. I'm just uh that that's me, my brain thinking again. No, I I completely agree. I think that they find something in each one of us that either they know they could never be, or they know whatever it is that we have would uh enhance whatever they have. And I think that's why they choose certain ones of us. And uh I also wanted to say the romantic part when you were saying how he learned poetry and he bought those books of poetry. You think, wow, that is so romantic because he just wants to learn about me. And how sweet is that for somebody to want to take an interest. And that's a that's the thing that makes it so difficult, I think, at first, too, because where do you draw that line, right? Of right, well, I like this kind of music, and he's showing an interest, and he wants to listen to some of the same music that I like.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

True.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

He like I he knows I like poetry, so he's going to buy the poetry books. He's going to learn, try to learn about these authors, but there is a line where they it it becomes not just like trying to take a mutual interest and learn more about you versus study you and learn, learn you so that they can manipulate you.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

True. So I want to add into that. Of course, for me, I'm a very uh reflective person. So I thought about it. Are there really things that were common between us? Because, you know, when I wrote the book, the the work that I have in my collection um spans from the time that I was there towards the end, right? So I was already writing, you know, while going through a lot. But I had the time towards the end where I right after the situation, I, you know, I left Sweden to the US to get some time for myself to study, to rationalize and put that into good use because you know that's what we're good at, right? We're finding our way. Um the first poem actually talks about how like how we're like the man and the how do you say that? Like an equivalent of each other. Um so I've told you about my intro earlier, right? Like it's pretty much a multi-hap in hyphen it. So he said that he also hikes. He he said that, you know, of course, he he paints, he draws. I also do that. I used to, you know, even join competitions. Um, I'm I'm fairly like an active person. He is to he's also an introvert. So there are things that I think we did not fade, but there's one thing that I remember now that we're talking about this. Um, because there's a line, right? And so I eventually became close to his mother. And so the mother and I would hang out every weekend just on our own, etc. And there was one time that you know, we were talking about like past experiences with the kids with his kids, and I said that you know, I love to hike, and his kid actually sorry, his son once loves to hike as well. And the mother said, My son never hiked. What are you on? He never hiked, he doesn't like it. Yeah, and yeah, I was like, damn, the things you can say, like, what's that about? So supporting what you just said, there's a line, and that was the line for me. They they literally um it's almost as if they hate themselves so much that they get personalities and identities from people that they've been with. So I I I dance as well. And when I say I dance, you know, I've been doing pole dancing for seven years, I do Latin dancing, um, I've done you know a little ballet when I was young. So I do have a dancing background, and so I really felt comfortable with him because I'm like a I I get attracted to a person. I'm a sapio-sexual. So I get like the attraction for me is if you can hold a conversation intellectually in different topics, because this is where I'm getting all the information from, experience, right? And all of a sudden, when we were, you know, in our first days of dating, I was like, I like talking to this guy because he's also talked, he also talks about research on dancing methodology and like cites the scientists and all that. Well, guess what? The ex-partner was a competitive dancer. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, yeah, but he claims this as if he actually did the research himself and he knew it from his experience. I'm like, it's such a mind-blowing there. Reflection is never towards the first, you know, the first moments of things, right? It's you it usually comes after. And so when I think about you don't actively think about it again, once we, you know, trauma experience, etc. You you kind of absorb it, and then every now and then it just pops up depending on the influence that you have during the day, right? And then there's just there are times where when you just think about it, it's like, man, those were just like signs in front of you. Like, how can you, you know, as a very um methodology, like a scientific person, how can you even not notice or decide not to notice? And he hates it when I tell him that I believe in patterns, by the way. Like he literally tell told me he doesn't like that. He doesn't like it when I say that I believe in patterns. And I'm like, I'm a scientist, I'm a nurse, I'm in a medical profession. That's where I'm getting all my you know knowledge from. That's that's the basis of things. Like you believe in patterns, he doesn't like me saying that.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

So how can you I don't understand everything is based on patterns, exactly, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:51

And he I remember I some things, like some moments, initially you would think it doesn't make sense until it does.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

So uh looking back at your relationship, were there signs that you per that you ignored, or you just didn't understand them at the time?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

So you know the saying that love is a blind bell sometimes. So it it's like both ways, right? I think he we want to. Believe that the person that we're with, okay, I came from a Filipino household, like an Asian household, despite that my family already immigrated

DARVO And The Constant Confusion

SPEAKER_01 22:37

there. But as you know, Filipinos are resilient to a fault. And even if maybe sometimes you see the flaws, you feel that it's your part to solve it yourself. But I think over time you realize that doing more wouldn't really make a person love you better or treat you better. If if if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Right. And it's funny because you're putting it on you. Like they, it's like you're it's it's it's almost as if you're enabling them for not being accountable. But to the point that when you realize, okay, I should hold them accountable, you will never be accountable. But that's kind of like too late already.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, no, I totally get that. I totally get that. Because as things started changing for me, I in the relationship, he started being it was like he tested the waters first to see how like what you were mentioning, to see how I would react to things. And then he'd push it further and he'd push it further. And at first, I was very uh, you know, I would call him out on it on different things. Like, no, you don't get to talk to me that way. I don't know who you think you are. But as time went on, it's like he eroded my self-esteem and my confidence and everything to where I started tolerating more. And I say tolerating because uh this is me today looking back at that previous version of me. At the time, I don't know that I would say I tolerated it. I just thought it was part of the relationship. I think saying the word tolerating makes it mean that I was aware that it was bad and I shouldn't be accepting this behavior. But it was he had destroyed so much of my rational thinking that it was it's like I didn't, I didn't even realize what he was doing by then. It was just, oh, I hope that he's not mean today. Or I hope he's not mean later. And patterns, I started recognizing patterns of if he was in a really, really good mood, that means that it was going to get really, really bad later. But uh I don't even know why I went on this tangent. Look, you're the one with a brain fog, but I I'm no I am a little bit too.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Sometimes the beauty of conversations is like, okay, so I'm gonna go back to, you know, I always say that people are walking projections, and I think it's just a matter of how you use these projections, right? If you use it for reflections, if you use it for a you know, a beautiful and a purposeful conversation, that's good. But if you use it to relate to someone, uh, you know, like a proper relationship, I don't think that is helpful or healthy because you're literally not getting to know the person, but you're getting to know yourself through the other person, hence reacting through yourself, not you know, not not not in a way that the other person would need or want. Right. So I'm okay with tangents, like I I don't, you know, I don't really, I don't really mind. And yeah, I was thinking about something earlier, I lost it too, but I think there was a time that so we're talking about patterns, right? Every fight that we've gone through, I always end up getting so confused because when I express my hurt or when I express or address something, I end up apologizing for the whole thing. And I did not have the language for it, which is pretty funny because I'm in the you know, it's like the shame after going through that was really severe because I came from a family, uh my siblings are all in the medical space, etc. And I hid the I hid the whole thing from them because I think it's my nature to protect, and I think I you know people take advantage of that, and so I ended up protecting the relationship. I didn't really tell them about what's going on, but the first time I told them what was going on, they were like, Kate, you better get out of there that's abuse. And I'm like, uh, you know what I mean? So so anyway, um, so there was this specific time that I had um the ex-wife and I, we ended up being close friends, and the ex-wife told me why they divorced. And again, exceptionalism, oh, this is the best, you know, that was between her and whatever, because he doesn't like me to believe in patterns, right? And so I went home anyway. I went home and clarified. So basically, the story was something along the lines of neglect and cheating. Okay, so I went home to him and asked him, you know, just to confirm, because oh my god, all of a sudden I'm hearing this, right? And I asked him, You're not gonna do this again, right? This is like the past. And you know, he just wants that validation. Instead, he got mad at me because I wasn't loyal to him and that my friendship with his wife wasn't healthy, and that he's so um disappointed in me. And he doesn't want me to go out with the ex-wife anymore. Blood. And I was the one who apologized.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

But that's one yes, that happens so frequently. I think every single person that I've talked to that has been in an abusive relationship can say a very similar situation, not exactly that same story, but where you address something that made you uncomfortable or that was a maltreatment of you, and somehow that's that's Darvo, the right, the uh the RVO part, the reverse victim, yes, victim offender. And so that's what they do. They they they flip it around and they make you seem like you were the one who just attacked them and that you were the offender, and now they're the victim, and you end up apologizing for what they just did to you.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Right. And then you end up feeling confused because all of a sudden, you know the logic for why you want to talk to this person, and then you apologize. And those are two different, you know, those are like contrasting information, and that creates confusion. So with my clients, I always tell them I think one indicator that you may be in a sort of relationship is for every opportunity to discuss something, you end up confused because confusion is like the identifier of, I mean, the science, the word for it is pathological love relationship. So, you know, you you can fall under a relationship with a um a narcissistic person, be it you know on a spectrum or a bipolar or uh, you know, a proper psychopath. So it's like different stuff, but but yes, that's um that's legit. Like that's legit. And then now when I think about it, there was even a time that he threatened to break up with me because I found so you know how they collect trophies, like yes, you know, things of people in their past to kind of again subconscious or conscious, whatever, right? Um oh my god, there's just so many things now that I just wanna okay. So I found post-its and letters that he kept and all indicating that he lied to me, basically, because he said that I'm the first person he wanted to marry, and you know, all these like love moments. So, of course, that's a lie, and I had to confront him. I I was the one who ended up apologizing. I mean, I was the one cleaning his house, I found it, and then I addressed it to him, and then he reversed it into thinking that I was invading his privacy, that he can't trust me anymore, that he had to break up with me. And I was the one begging. But by the time, by the time you reach the part when you start begging, I realized that kid, because you know, I listen to clients when they talk about their stories. Before you reach that part, you go through a stage, right? Like they break down every piece of you first until they become your rock because you're just so confused. They become your rock, they become your voice, and then by then it's easy to break you, right? And so I was begging for it. It was crazy. Like you would think, what? How how how can that be my fault? In fact, I'm doing you a favor that you're I'm cleaning your house because I'm starting, you know, I started living with him, and then and there was even the times that sorry, before I lost, before I lose it, I was cleaning the basement and I saw like wigs, you know, like for dancing competition. Because I was so foggy, I just believed whatever he said. So I asked him, What are these wigs and shoes? It's a size seven and shoes, and you know what he told me? Oh, that's like my eldest daughter's. And the eldest at that time was like a teenager, and then after that, because the the girl before me started keeping in touch with me, and there's like a picture. I'm like, I know that wig. Oh my gosh. I was so gas-lit that whatever he just told me, I just maybe I already gave up. You know what I mean? Because if I say I don't think so, and then it will become my fault again. And well, like, damn if you do, damn if you don't. I remember my journal. I don't know if you're following the Lindsey, the Lindsay Clancy case. Um, are you following it, by the way?

SPEAKER_00 32:27

I I'm not watching the trials, but I'm catching up on notes afterward.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

So I think they shared bits and pieces of her journal, and you know, I identify like that was how dark my journal was. I'm not talking about the, you know, the killing, not like that. It's more of the paradoxes and the ironies that I say. Like, I love him, but I hate him so much, or it's like, why am I feeling so confused? Like, I don't know what's going on with me, I don't know what's wrong with me. Like, you know, those type of things. And this is coming from a person who knows what she wants, who's been living alone all her life, never needed decisions, you know, to even consult. I usually just decide on my own. Um, yeah, and all of

Gaslighting And Losing Self Trust

SPEAKER_01 33:12

a sudden, I don't know what to do with myself.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

I was the same. And actually, when I got out of the relationship, my fantasy, because he would ask, Who are you fantasizing about? And I was like, Nobody. I'm fantasizing about having a place where I get to make all the decisions about my life, and nobody's going to tell me it's the wrong decision. I get to do everything I want on my own. That's what I'm fantasizing about.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, I mean, I remember this quote somewhere wherein if you give a lady or if you give a woman just 24 hours on her own, like what would she do? And you know, there are different ideas, right? But that's actually just what we want. We just want to live in peace. Peace. That's exactly it. We want to make decisions on our own. We want to be able to sleep. Oh God, sleep is something that I treasure these days because at that time I was sleeping when he wakes up. Sorry, we sleep together and we wake up together because there was one time that, you know, my work allowed me to work at certain hours wherein I don't even have to really mind when I wake up. And I got it from him, you know, like he was like, Look at me, I'm waking up at 6 a.m., you know, trying to work for the children. And I'm like, Yeah, that's your children. And then you, you're just sleeping, this and that. And I'm like, is that supposed to make me feel anything? And of course I reasoned out, right? But eventually you just you just stop because you're tired, you're exhausted, you're surviving, right? And you're no longer yourself.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

That's right. You're no longer sleep sleep deprivation is another one of their tools to because if you're not sleeping, you can't think clearly.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Yeah, you just you you can't, right? Um, there's there's because right now I look, I get eight hours of I I I usually wake up at four and five because I train really early. I train at around either five or six, and then I end by seven or eight, and then I start work at night. But you know what? I can't complain because I signed up for it. Like I could definitely say, I signed up for it. It's different, you know how it is when you say when people would tell you, yeah, but you signed up for that relationship. No, I didn't. I signed up for the person that he pretended to be, and then knowing eventually that this person did exist, I signed up with a like a conman's agreement, for Christ's sake. I mean, yes, there's a better term for that, right? Yes. It's it's a person that never existed. Like, yeah, it's just a person that never existed.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

You're exactly right. You're exactly right. That I mean, that is that is so it. I have, you know, I have multiple friends who have who have been in these relationships, some who are currently in them, who are still coming to terms. And, you know, I had one that said, I still love him. And I'm like, I understand that, but you also need to understand that you love the person he portrayed himself as. You don't love the actual person that he is, because the person that he is is hurting you. And and it hasn't been physical, but uh, it's been emotional, psychological abuse, and but he's like really, really, really hurting her. And that person that you fell in love with, that person would never do that to you. So that person's not real. You can't change yourself to get back to that person, which is what I tried to do. Try to change myself. It must be me because he's nice to everyone else. So I must have done something he's told me I've changed. So I must have changed. Let me get myself back to what I was and figure out what it is that he wants so we can go back to what we used to be.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

And that those people manipulating. He said the same words to me too. And because there's something wrong with me, he wanted me to go to therapy, and that's what I did. I went to therapy because he told me that there was something wrong with me, and by that time, he was already my rock, like the voice in my head. I already lost mine. So it was easy for me to think that, oh my god, this isn't my fault. This is because you know, all our arguments, obviously, it was my fault. So this is me, and I went to therapy, right? I had my individual like therapist, and I think I mean, you know, therapists, they they listen, right? They pay attention to cues. And then eventually he started, she started asking or talk asking me information about my partner. And so, you know, I shared, I just casually share. But eventually she told me that dear, I'm so sorry to like I you know what I really do think that you know you are being emotionally abused. And I'm like, what do you mean? I I don't know what you mean because I think partly we just didn't have the like personally, I did not have the language, but I felt that there was something wrong. But because he kept on pushing me to think that it was me, then I thought there was something wrong with me. I really thought I was going crazy. I literally wrote that. I, you know, I had my journal. I I thought that I was really going crazy. I you would you wouldn't think, right? Like, and so this is actually how it played out. Let me tell you how it played out. So my therapist said, okay, so how about we play a game? Because you're more into patterns, you're more of a, you know, you I analyze, right? So you collect data, you collect cases. So, how about for everything that you feel like you want to discuss with him because he did something, um, write it down. Don't talk to him about it. This time the time that this happened, we were already in counseling, like me and him. So that's separate. And so that's what I did. I wrote those three. So the three situations happened wherein it was the same darbo, but not only with me, but with the children. Okay, so with the children, I did not say anything. So now he my therapist told me now with your couples therapy, you have to listen to what he's gonna say, because you're gonna talk about it, right? Like what happened in the week, etc. So pay attention. So that happened with the counseling, the couples therapy happened. So I was just paying attention. I said, So basically, I did not talk about anything, like you know, all happy times, all like whatever. Um, and so the therapist said, Okay, so how are you this week? And he was the one like giddy and saying, Oh, we were very okay, we did not fight, we did not talk about anything that would, you know, ruin the religion, you know, along using his own words, of course. And the therapist was like, So why why do you think that is? And he said, I think we were just um, I think we were just mindful of the things that we should talk about, or to discuss or to even make you know things to talk to basically talk about things, and that's when it hit me. Oh my god, I that's when it hit me. I I I really remember thinking like I think the only way for this relationship to work is for me to lose my voice. That's when it hit me, and so I went back to my therapist and reported. I said, This is now, do you wanna you want and then my therapist I do want to continue? But this is gonna be the hard part because I know that the discard's gonna happen if you do this. All I'm asking is for the next time that it asks you to bend, do not bend. Basically, do not apologize, do not because that's what happened, that's what happened already. I just keep on saying, okay, yes,

The Turning Point And Discard

SPEAKER_01 41:17

yes, yes, I'm sorry, even if it's not my fault, right? So to cut the story short, he there's this coworker that I told him I'm not comfortable with because I think we women we know when a person is I mean, we know we were women, so there are certain behaviors that you know it means it means something, or it a person is basically just waiting for her shot, kind of. Yes, and that person gave me that impression, so I said, okay, I'm not comfortable with it, right? So but then again they work together, so fine. But here's the mistake it was his birthday week, and he went for the whole week for the trips, and we were talking. For the first four days that we were talking every night, he did not mention that he was with this person. I just had a gut feeling, and then so I asked him, right? I asked him, and then he said, I said, Why didn't you tell me this is something I should know because you know that I'm not copy, blah blah blah. And then so basically his answer was, yeah, but then again, I thought you were healing and this and that. So he kind of like diverted it to me that it was my fault, or like you can't handle the information, so I didn't tell you. So that's a form of manipulation, right? Etc. And then so basically he basically didn't want to talk to me anymore up until he came back. And I was so tired because I was preparing for his like birthday surprise at home, you know. I I cooked, I cooked all his favorite food, blah, blah, blah. And then at night he still wanted to talk about work. But we were supposed to catch up on what happened, right? And then I I I politely told him um that time that I was so tired. This is something that we can talk about the next day. Because I was so tired. That's and then of course I'm hyper-vigilant because like, what the hell? You were out with a person I'm not, you know. And then the next day, he said, also not you're not interested with my you're not interested in my life, my work, etc. You have to apologize. I mean, this disconnection, this is your fault to begin with. Blah, blah, blah. So he blamed it on me. And we had therapy at that night. I mean, that evening. And he didn't want to talk to me the whole day before that therapy. And that was the time I called my sister. And my and my because my therapist already told me that if I don't win this time, if I, you know, if I just do what he tells, she tells me, then I would see it. So, in a way, I felt I felt like I just needed, I'm very thankful for that person, to be honest. Like, because sometimes we need it, we just need that a little push. So, to cut the story short, of course, I was discarded, I was heartbroken, but at the same time, damn, that happened to me. Yeah, you know what I mean? And and it's true, like once they think that you no longer can serve them, or they sort of feel that you figure them out. Remember, we are props. Can they take you up? They take you up. Right? And I think the only difference is that I figured him out. Honestly, when I think about it, that the That's the difference. Because when I started going to school, I went to the US, I started creating my threads account for the things that I learned. That was my way to rationalize what happened to me and to also find the language to use it into you know my strength as well to describe how things are going on for survivors. Because now I'm a survivor, I'm also a clinician. So I think I I provide like a dual lens to it, right? Um, and so people reach out to me, including the woman before him and after me. Um the woman before me and after me. So of course you would think, okay, maybe it's your fault, it's you know, a beats you, but I think now I have enough data to say that that that that should have not happened. And yeah, that that that I'm I can't say that I'm not at it's not my fault to be abused, absolutely. I did not deserve that. Sorry, I just rambled, but I think the whole cycle explains or at least gives an example that you're just too close to see it. And some who are going through it are in this cycle of rationalizing themselves, you know, with themselves or even negotiating with themselves, that it's not that bad. But it is. I really it is, and I think I just want to give that example that it becomes clear when you're out, and the only way for you to have that realization is to actually be out. I'm just thankful that um, I'm not thankful that he discarded me again. I did not deserve the way that he did that because he literally said things about him, not me during the the therapy. Like he actually said things like, look at her, she's anxious, she's jealous in a calm way. Okay, look at her. She's actually, she's jealous, she's so frustrated. I mean, she's the problem. Um you know, Kate, Kate, this is the thing that really hurt me. Kate, Kate only had Kate has empathy, but only towards herself. All the things that he said at that time, I believed for months. I was in therapy for this. It really hurt me because I literally gave up everything, like even my dreams for myself, even like, you know, just I didn't even want to have kids, and now I'm a bonus mom at that time. Just those big and little things, right? And that really hurt me. But now when I think about it, I'm like, no, he he was talking about himself.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Well, I think that's what they do too. The same friend that I have, that's just she needs to get out, he will project everything onto her. Mine projected that I was cheating on him. And I wasn't. I don't know to this day. I actually kind of don't care if he he actually was cheating, but he was threatening cheating on me multiple times with different individuals. And so that's what they do. They project onto you.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Okay, there's a situation that I rem I remember now. He so he said that he used the word catefying, right? Because I'm very robotic. Like as if I don't have feelings. Now, if you think about it, that's actually him. Like, you know, again, reflections, right? Like he's projecting that I don't have emotions, that I'm very stoic. Um, and he even told me that I am autistic. He thinks that you know I'm autistic. And I know I'm not. I don't mind if I, you know, I figure out that I have one, but it's actually his son who is.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

And he maybe he made me believe that I really have something, you know. Like that I that's unresolved that I have to go to the doctor for it. It was it was really bad. It was really bad. Like, and what makes it worse, I guess for us who are in the medical field, it's like, what we fell for this, angry.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I know, I know. That was one thing that when I went to therapy, I would say, How did I let this happen? And she would correct me. She's like, You did not let anything happen. Somebody manipulated you. And for those who are listening who are thinking, I would never be manipulated. I'm too smart for that. That was part of my downfall. That was part of why I stayed in this relationship longer than I should have, is because I kept telling myself, I'm too smart. I would never end up in an abusive relationship as I'm living in an abusive relationship.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

No, it's it's great. Like it's it's insidious. Like that there's no other word. Like whenever I have to describe it, it's what it is. Because it really eats you up. It really takes something from you without you noticing it until, oh damn, what's left of me? I think I told you about the the penny theory, right? Like the the penny theory, wherein they've been giving a hundred, and so you're just all loved up, you feel full, and all of a sudden they take out five dollars, and then you address this five dollars. You keep addressing it, you beg for it for a long time, and then they give you 95. And just because they gave you 95, you feel full again, right? Because oh my god, he gave me um, he gave me 95, right? And then he takes another five and he gives you 95, and then eventually you're you're actually you feel full at 30,

Rebuilding Through Therapy And Data

SPEAKER_01 50:07

and you didn't even know how that happened, right? It's because you tolerated those five dollars without you actually noticing it. That's um I was gonna see this the fog, right? Um, intermittent shit. Sorry, there's a for it, but but that's that that's what I mean. It's like um they but but you get the expl you get the explanation.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

Oh, I do, I do, because it was it was where like the abuse would be such verbal, like lashing, and then the next time it wouldn't be as bad.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

And I would be so grateful. I was so grateful, like there you go. At least he didn't say this this time. Okay, and so you you're able to excuse away more and more of the behavior because oh, at least he didn't do this this time, right?

SPEAKER_01 51:01

And I should feel better about it, it's not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yes, it's not that bad, it's not that bad because it wasn't as bad bad as it was last time.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah, and you really there was okay, so there's this time, in a way it's like off tangent, but I want to give you so I gave you the explanation about the wig, right? And the shoes. Yes, and at that time I I'm I was just so gas-lit that uh either I I literally literally believed him, or I just gave up. There was a time that we we talked about flowers, and at that time he has not given me flowers yet, and I was wondering. So I asked him, and he said, I already gave you flowers. And he even explained his process. Yeah, you know, when I, you know, when I meet someone, I asked them, you know, their favorite flowers, and then I gave to them, and I told them, So what's my favorite flower then? And he kept name it. And he said, He he said, You really want to talk about this at the game of my third, you know, my youngest, you really want to ruin this? So again, it became my fault, right? And then he kept on pushing that he gave me flowers, and I said, No, if you gave me flowers, I would have had that picture on my phone. And then he's like, What is wrong with you? I gave you flowers, and you can't change what like we were fighting about it, and then because eventually you just don't want to fight about it. I ended up negotiating with my own thoughts that maybe hasn't given me flowers, maybe that flower came from some like so eventually you just feel so crazy, yeah. Yeah, right? There was you you just eventually feel so crazy. And I remember so do you know Dr. Romani? So Dr. Romani, I've attended her conferences, um, she was also part of the curkelin, and she really highlighted the the part where in how gaslighting really erodes your identity. Like it and this is an example, right? You're the example in my case, I'm very decisive. My memory was sharp, really sharp. And then this person tries to manipulate it in those quote unquote little things, but become big things because eventually you end up not trusting your own thoughts anymore, or not even your own memory, to the point that you know when you're being abused is when you start recording conversations because you think you're going crazy already. That I was like, I have to record this. There was even a time that um had a conversation, so the youngest asked uh in front of me. The youngest asked um the father, uh, you know, can you bring me to the party? Okay, I think you're Asian, so you will get this, you're Filipino. So he said, Yes. He just said yes, okay. And then the on the day of the party, he's he asked, Where is the party? And then the the son said, Okay, it's in this address. And he said, What made you think I'm gonna drive you there? That's like too so far, you know. Ask your friends' parents if they can drive me. I'm not gonna drive you, blah blah blah. And then he reverts back to me. So, of course, the kid went out and then found this way, and then comes back to me and said, Can you believe it? My own son is tricking me into like thinking that I would actually drive. And then I started reasoning with him, but not because I had to write this. This is like one of the things I had to write, right? I just said, Um, yeah, but you know what? In my culture, like if if like my dad, my dad asks, I don't know if you experienced this. My dad would ask, What time is the party? Where's the partner? Who are the companions that are gonna be there, like the parents, how many girls, how many guys? Like it was that specific. I mean, yes, experience this.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Oh, yes, and my my mom would call the house and speak to the parents to verify everything that I said.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Right. But basically, to imply to him that you said yes blindly, and then you blame your kid for you not even not being able to deliver your task as a father. That's basically what happened, that I had to write because again, this was part of the 10-day, right? And I'm like, oh my god, you're teaching. Okay, so and then I talked to I talked to the youngest, right? And I literally had to do you remember this conversation? And he said, Yeah, I remember this conversation. How do you feel? And of course he shared how I feel. Please don't tell my parents. Of course I didn't tell it. But kids get it, and my worry is that we get these experiences, we learn these from our childhood experiences, right? And so while we think that the kids are not picking up, they actually are. So yeah, I just want to share that because uh it's it's very uh um how the there's a word for it like you really trust your judge, you don't trust trust your judgment eventually that you even have to consult a kid if you heard things, if you you get me, because you really made me doubt that how I feel, how I think has been wrong.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Yes, I will to this day, it's been years since I've been out of my relationship. To this day, I will ask my sister, did that really happen or did I make that up? And she was like, No, it really happened. You're not exaggerating, stop it. You're not the person who was, you know, because he would tell me that I was a narcissist. Or my favorite was when he came up to me and he's like, Have you heard of the term gaslighting? And I just started cracking up because I'm like, I know he's going to start telling me that I have been gaslighting him. And I said, I'm very well aware of the term. And then so uh yeah, he was like, Well, you've been gaslighting me for a long time, and it's it's ridiculous. Um, I don't want to take up all your time, but I do want to get into what you have to offer now. Um, so what are you doing now again?

SPEAKER_01 57:19

Oh, so basically um, I'm not taking a lot of cases right now, but I'm a relational trauma clinician, right? So sometimes, so I do have a couple of clients, but minimal case only. Um, I would get on 15-minute calls with them and I'd see if this is a case that I can take, you know, depending on my bandwidth, and also if it's a fit, because I think chemistry is very important with um, you know, the patient-client relationship. It's very important that the client is able to actually share what's going on, you know. Once you feel there's a barrier for that, then it might not work in a way that you expect because you can't put everything, you can't lay everything on the table, right? So I do that, but it really depends on the case. So I I take minimal right now because of what's happening as well. Um,

Turning Pain Into A Poetry Book

SPEAKER_01 58:07

and and I also have my book. So for whoever wants to read the book, um, I remember like one person who has been an advocate of domestic abuse. She read my book and she started recommending the book to other survivors or people who are in relationships. I personally think that now I'm convinced because when I created the book, when I um published it, rather, it was for my own um benefit. Like I really wanted to close that chapter. I wanted something tangible just for me to move on for the next chapter wherein it's gonna be all me, which is now, right? Um, and now I can definitely say that when you are in a relationship that's very confusing, maybe you can try to read my experience. It may sound like a rant for people who are not comfortable with vulnerable, you know, conversations, but it may sound something that speaks to you if it's if it's the situation you're in. So yeah, I would just I guess invite um listeners to check out my book. It's called In the Darkness of Shards, Poems from a Broken Place. And I'm also in social media. Um, you can maybe just drop the hand the handle in the footnotes if you can. And you know, you could just send me a message. I get messages from LinkedIn, emails, people reading my book, and it's very touching. Um I think the fact that I know that I've let people know that they're not alone is a big thing for me because when I was in that relationship, I really do felt alone. My family wasn't around. I protected the whole experience from them as well. So I felt like it was my responsibility to make it work, to change myself, to do this and all that. And I hope that the book kind of gives that opening for you to think that you're not alone and that you can get out of it if you would like to.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

So I want to talk a little bit more about the book. So was that it's all of it is poetry, correct? Yes. Were you writing it as you were in the relationship, or is this something that you've written as like a reflection back?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

So there are some that I've written during as it happened, and there are some that I have created, like I think four or five pieces um after. So it was more of like a reflection. The way that I created the book, I can actually say it here, it's fine. The way that I created the poems, it's like it's like a story. So when you read it, it you know, it it holds on its own, but if you connect all the pieces, there's a start and the end.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:45

And how did you I know you said you you've always been a writer. What made you decide to do poetry versus just like a memoir, writing it in a traditional storytelling format?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

Um, I think partly because I'm more drawn into reading poetry. And you know, it's like a I was gonna use the same logic of emotional availability that when you read, you know, when you receive and you give. And so for me, I love reading poetry, and I thought I should be doing something that I love receiving or I love reading because eventually I will read it. I will read it, right? Um, so that's that's my decision. That was my decision. Um, when it was happening, I did not, I also want to share that when there were some um works that I wrote during, you know, as it happened, right? That time I was a bonus mother, I was working, though I'm I was working double shifts in a care home, and I was also studying. And so for me to create, and again, I was foggy, I was surviving. So for and but but writing again has been kind of like my shelter in that sense. And so the way that I wrote, it was just you know, in phrases, and and so it was the most accessible. So when you read the book, I just want to say it's an entry-level book for that reason. I created it during the chaos, it was, you know, it's pretty straightforward. So you don't have to be into poetry to get what's happening, and so it's a recommendation from other people for survivors or you know, and those kinds of relationships to be what's really interesting is I actually had an entire episode on poetry.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Uh, the the person, the guest I had was Margaret uh Bryden, and she's a therapist, and she actually wrote a book called Bad Poetry. Um, I think it's called Bad Poetry, some something along the lines of bad poetry. And what she was saying is it you don't have to be a poet to write poetry. And that sometimes poetry, it's easier to express your emotions because you're you can use metaph metaphors and you can use different imagery instead of writing down the traumatic, specifically the traumatic experiences. And you can do it either way, but she it's it's interesting because I think that we connected shortly after I had recorded that episode with Margaret, and I was like, wow, this is so interesting because here's an actual you know poetry book that's been written.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:31

I want to add as well that I don't really um identify myself as a poet. I'm more of like a storyteller or just a writer for me. And the reason is that I think poets um they can do it in all states. You know, when you talk about successes in life, when you talk about a family, I personally think that I write these kinds of work when I'm feeling something negative. And I think that also has a you know, there's an explanation for it, right? I mean, humans, we are drawn into problem solving. That's literally what our brain is for, and so we ask for the why, we try to connect the dots, this and that. And usually for negative situations, we're more in touch with our creative juice in that sense, because it triggers us more than the positives. Um, so I've I still write, by the way, and you know, I think about it like I still write. So I sometimes I feel like right, I don't force it by the way. Um, and I think, will this because my book then it became a top five best seller, I think, at some point, and then it became like a top release when it well when I published it, maybe three weeks or something. And I thought, will this, you know, make it, will will this stop what I did? And personally, I think logically, based on research, maybe not, and that's okay because I write, I mean, you know, you write for reasons, right? But I just want to add that I don't identify myself as a poet for that, because I think my process is different compared to like real poets, and adding to the point that you don't have to be a poet to actually be able to write something that is as good as that. I think it's really our experiences that create these masterpieces. That's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

I think it's really an incredible uh outlet to process through whatever it is that you're going through.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:39

Okay, I know it's getting later.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

This is not supposed to

Big Five Traits Abusers Exploit

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

be like a final take. I just want to add something. So I want to talk about the big five personalities. Oh, yeah. I have to remember four right now. Um, we talked about ourselves right now, like we tend to empathize towards others. Again, empathy, sympathy, compassion, those are three different things, and maybe you already know this, but I want to point out that abusers are drawn to a specific type of person. Maybe you would identify this person as a people pleaser. This is this is a form, but maybe a healthy form, right? Um, but in terms of big five, if you are high in agreeability and high in consensuousness, then you are more likely a target. I I really wanted to share that. Maybe it's you can look into big five personalities, look into your scoring so at least you can get to know more about yourself and how prone you are into these prone into getting into these types of relationships or dealing with these kinds of people is because they take advantage of this right um so when you're the type who doesn't want to argue if you're the type who just wants you know like a pleasant environment more likely you're the type of person who would just say yes you know you're you're right you're right I'm sorry I'm sorry and then consensuousness bit comes in when you're the partner even if your partner is accountable you signed up for this relationship so you think you have to make it work and so you do the work rather than him doing his share of the work. So that is very important. I just thought about it now because we were talking about how we are towards you know our parents or family so on and so forth would be good for our listeners to check out this bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

And you can be a combination of those.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

Is there anything else that you can think of I don't know I'm just like I know I know let me look I did take a few okay no I mean no I think yeah the the the minimal amount of notes that I took when when we did our free interview we we had we talked about those okay well so then in closing so you can get to sleep um do you have parting words of wisdom or encouragement for listeners to take away from today sure so I'm gonna use the same quote that I used um at the time that I left the relationship towards to when I got to a better and the best place which is now right so there's this quote by Rumi um the quote says um as you walk along the path along these lines okay as you walk along the path the path appears or as you walk on the way the we the way appears it basically means that sometimes we worry so much on what happens after this but the only way to find out is to actually put your first step out of it and then find out for yourself right I mean there's a classic word no it's not classic it's pretty um not careless uh just a casual word for it but I'm I'm gonna use this quote of course so when you walk on the way the way appears um when you get into that relationship it is inevitable for you even if you're a secure person you're gonna be anxious because anxiety boils down it it basically stems from ambiguity the the unfamiliar right they're gonna put you in that position no matter how secure you are again you've been manipulated and anxiety will not allow you to walk on the way so I'm telling you um it is anxiety it is the fear of not knowing what is next you are more familiar with the suffering rather than the successes and the joys that come after I say go after because I am a testament like I am uh an example of what is on the other side I am living a very healthy life physically mentally emotionally I get to sleep whenever I want I value my relationships and appreciate my relationships even more

The First Step Out

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

I get drawn to people who are more um empathetic and more you know represents my values like you Ingrid there's a better life outside of where you are right now and you just need to take a step out of it and it will appear in a way that you know not you would create but that's the first step so that's like my parting words.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:13

That's perfect. Thank you so much Catherine for everything and for joining me today. Thank you so much Angrid Thank you again Catherine for joining me today and thank you Warriors for listening you can find the links Catherine was referring to as well as her Beyond the Statistics profile in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode for you. Until then stay strong and wherever you are in your journey always remember you are not alone to learn more explore episode resources browse the collections or register as a guest visit Beyond the Statistics Podcast dot com. If today's episode meant something to you please share it with someone who may need it. Don't forget to subscribe leave a review and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media. Beyond the statistics is a point five Panoy production music written and performed by Tim Crow