Healing After Narcissistic Abuse: Hypnotherapy & Trauma Recovery with Barbara DuchnowskiI Ep. 146

Why Healing Comes Next

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hi Warriors, welcome to Beyond the Statistics. I'm your host, Ingrid. Following Domestic Violence Awareness Month and a full series of survivor stories, I thought it was important to spend some time talking about what can come next. Healing. Barbara joins me today, and while we begin with a conversation about narcissism, the heart of this episode is really about healing, with particular attention to hypnotherapy, a modality that has intrigued me, but honestly also scared me for a long time. So today I'm asking the questions I've had myself as we explore what hypnotherapy actually is, what it isn't, and the role it may play in healing after abuse. Hi, Barbara. Thank you so much for joining me and welcome to Beyond the Statistics.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Hi, thank you so much, Ingrid, for having me here.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Okay, before we get into our conversation, could you just share a little bit about yourself so listeners can learn to get to know you a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Certainly. Barbara Duchnowski. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and a certified narcissistic abuse treatment clinician. I completed the program under Dr. Romani. I'm also an EMDR therapist and an advanced clinical hypnotherapist.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

And for everybody listening, I know it's yet another therapy sort of conversation, but I think that therapy and all the different modalities that are available to help heal are so important to discuss. I have had a previous episode on EMDR. I think you and I talked about that before, but I have not had anything on hypnotherapy whatsoever. And certainly the narcissistic recovery is something that quite a bit of us can relate

Meet Barbara And Her Work

SPEAKER_00 2:12

to. And I think that we'll we'll just go ahead and start diving into some of the conversation. Maybe let's let's save the hypnotherapy till a little bit later. Let's talk a little bit about the narcissistic portion of it. It's something that is talked about quite a bit, but I I don't think that there's ever too much conversation that can happen surrounding the actual uh true definition of it, because I do think the the word gets thrown around pretty easily. And so I've had somebody do this before, but can you just define what narciss I think a lot of people have narcissistic traits, but the actual narcissistic personality disorder, what does that entail?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Okay, so a wonderful question, Ingrid. Yes, because it it is being thrown around everywhere and and and people just randomly calling people narcissistic. Um and it goes back to the traits. So in the world of psychology, psychiatry, we have the diagnostic uh manual, the DSM, that we follow. It's like the clinical Bible. And within there, there are certain, and I don't have it with me here to to to read off every single bullet point, but I'll I'll give the general idea of it. Uh, there are a certain number of these traits or things that need to be checked off for

NPD Versus Narcissistic Traits

SPEAKER_01 3:32

someone to have, and there needs to be this pattern of behavior. So it's not a one-off, it's a not a here and there, and it's something that's impacting every aspect of their life, not just personal relationships, um, work environment, family relationships, you know, just the day-to-day is is impacting them in a very severe way and those people around them. So when we're talking about personality traits, so if any of us were to open up the DSM and we're flipping through the pages, we would be like, oh, I have that. I might have a little of that, and oh yeah, like maybe I do do that, right? So we we have like maybe something here or something there, those are the traits, but it's really the whole cluster of these traits and the pattern of it, the repetition of it that warrants the narcissistic personality disorder. So there is the sense of entitlement, the you know, I am better than someone else. It can present as grant grandiosity. Um, you know, it it's a it's a um, it really is a self-serving of oneself that is is presented there. Um and again, we all have these sorts of traits. Now, I I did want to add, um, and again, anybody can go online and just look up NPD and they could get the the exact definition of that. Um so it is a basin in in entitlement and a disregard for for others. However, with the narcissistic trait, where the field is starting to talk more and more about um just like an antagonistic style or an antagonistic personality, because as survivors, we could get really wrapped up, or are they a covert narcissist, are they vulnerable narcissists, are they a grandiose narcissist, are they a communal narcissist? Are they a psychopath? Are they a sociopath? So we we start to go down that rabbit hole, and then what happens is we lose sight of ourselves and what we need, and what we need to regulate our nervous system, to bring peace into our lives, to be authentic with ourselves, reach our life goals. We're so focused on figuring out this puzzle piece, which uh, you know, that's where the mind wants to go because it wants to make sense of the nonsense. But along with the narcissistic trait, there are other traits as well that present themselves and they call they're called the dark tetrad. So we have some other personality character traits really of psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and sadism that go along with narcissism. So for some people, there is this pure clinical presentation of MPD, narcissistic personality disorder. But sometimes people experience what feels like, you know, the clinical, the the pure clinical version, but the actions, the results are different. There might not be a Hoover, there just might be a discard, or there could be no sense of insecurity that's very much tied with the idea of MPD, and instead just a someone's very, very confident in themselves, and they could be almost predatory. So, like in psychopathy, there's the the traits of really no regard for human life or the rights of others, no attention to what the rules are, the laws, they're there for breaking and and serving one's own purpose. And then with Machiavellianism, we could just say that that is um manipulativeness. So that is just using people like pawns on a chessboard to get their needs met. And sadism on that one is that's a very painful one. And and that one is and there's everyday sadism where where you know like people will do um things like, you know, um, they'll go and they'll, you know, cut someone off in line, like, you know, and be like, haha, you know, or they'll hold up a line, like, you know, you got you're you're on the road and someone's going 20 miles under the speed limit intentionally, uh, right? So that's like everyday sadism. But sadism is is some people actually get a high or pleasure out of watching other people suffer.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Those are such good definitions. I I love that you did go through that. And I can relate to what you were saying. When I got out of my relationship, I was very hyper-focused on what made him do the things he did. And is he a narcissist? Is he this? Is he that? And I got very wrapped up in it. And it's it's kind of, I mean, if you think about it, it's a it's a dark place to be. You don't want to be in that brain because you don't function that way. And it's really hard for somebody who doesn't function that way to understand all the dynamics. And did he do this on purpose? Did he really believe what he was saying to me when I know it was a blatant lie? Like, the sky's not blue. I I mean, this didn't really happen, but the sky's not blue, it's purple. And I would get stuck on that. Did does he really believe it's purple? Is he so confused that he thinks it's purple? Or does he know he's lying? Uh for instance, like if I did something or I didn't, I did not say something. You said this, you started this fight. Like, does he believe that? Or is he really trying to mess with my mind? I got so stuck on this. And then I realized that it was doing absolutely nothing for my well-being. And instead of focusing on what he's thinking, what he thought, let me focus on myself and heal myself. It's and it's a very difficult place to be once you've lived with that kind of behavior and you've been abused by that kind of behavior. And I it is easy to get stuck in that right of trying to, it's it's almost easier to try to understand them than it is to fix or heal yourself.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Absolutely, absolutely, because right, we're we're there's there's a certain level of moral injury that comes on the receiving end of this type of abuse. Because we are taught from the time we are young that the world operates in a certain way, that people are intrinsically good. People try they're flawed, but they don't, they don't, they don't mean to harm you, especially if you're in a some sort of a committed relationship, for example, right? And say if you even have children together, right? Like, um, you know, it's all about communication, you know, it's it's it's so then it makes sense when we are in this type of a relationship that right the brain wants to make sense of this because it completely does not align with the playbook we were given for life or for relationships. We're like, oh, I don't know what's going on over here. So we're like literally scratching our heads trying to figure it out. And and once we come to that level of acceptance that, yeah, they did do this intentionally, they did want to dysregulate us, they did want to dysregulate our nervous system, they they did want to make us confused and doubt ourselves. So for whatever reasons of gain they had, they needed to be in control, they needed

Dark Tetrad And Label Rabbit Holes

SPEAKER_01 11:07

to win in a way. They were coming into the relationship with with a completely different playbook than we had on life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Right. And I think that's probably also why society, those who have never been exposed to any form of abuse, also finds it so much easier to excuse the abusive behavior and almost blame, or not even almost blatantly blame the victim, or think that they the victim had some part to play. You know, they they always have that. There's two sides to the story, there's that side, that side, or three sides, their his side, her side, or his, his, whatever gender, and then the truth. And even as a victim or survivor, you also think that same thing. You might be convinced that, and that's where you start to almost gaslight yourself too, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Exactly. And that's exactly what it is. We start to gaslight ourselves because society then starts to tell us these things exactly, and we may have all have heard it. There's her side, his side, and or or her side, her side, his side, his side, and then there's the truth, right? But if one person is being deceptive and lying, there is no communication whatsoever, right? So, so then so how unfair is that to blame the victim and it causes a second injury, a second moral injury, uh continues the the the abuse for us, the psychological abuse. And when you said that, it's like I grabbed my heart because that's that's the experience so many of us have had when we have gone out to get support, to get some insight, to, to get some healing. It's like, well, what did you do? What was your role in this relationship? Um, but if we had known who that person was, if they had shown us who they truly were at the very beginning, I would guarantee that most of us would have said no, thank you, next, and just like not even engaged. But they know that. That's why they don't present that well that way. But right, then there's this this this continuing harm that happens to survivors by by people who maybe mean well but are just completely uninformed.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Well, and it's that same belief that keeps you stuck in the relationship when you're trying to figure out what's going on, because you you think about the beginning of how they presented themselves. Because, like you said, they they know that if they show their true colors right at first, you're you're going to walk away. But they present themselves in such a way, and as a relationship continues on, you remember the good times at the beginning, or even the good times that are woven in throughout the relationship. And you start to believe what's being said. Well, if you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have done this. And then you start thinking, how do I change myself? Because again, you have this belief that the world is good, people are good. And if he or she acted this way, maybe it was because I said something or I wasn't sensitive to their needs or how they were brought up or their past traumas. And you continuously try to shift yourself a little bit, maybe minimize yourself a little bit, be more of what they're asking you to be. And like you said at the very beginning, it's this pattern that happens over and over again. And that's when you know this is not a good thing. But at that point, you're so engrossed in it, you don't know. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Your your your self-doubt has has really seeped in. Um, and and right then, and just the personal investment and perhaps right, like children, other family members, pets, homes, you know, there's a lot of things that start to intertwine. And so with that, right, where we start to and and that quality of us that says, all right, let me reflect back, let me see what I've done is actually such a wonderful piece of us, because that part of us is if we were with a healthy partner, would be the plus for a relationship that we had the empathy or the care or you know, the the desire to make it work, to be cooperative, right? So, so that piece of of us, that good natured piece of us, with actually the healthy piece of us, because we're social creatures, we want to stay bonded and connected, gets used against us and gets weaponized against us and keeps us stuck in that way. And then also, too, what happens is you know, the nervous system is being activated as well throughout the entirety of the relationship. And when we're so busy focusing on them, what are they saying? What are they doing? How do I anticipate their need? Like, or where, like you had said, Ingrid, do I need to pull back or be quiet or minimize myself in some sort of way so that things don't escalate or or they're not upset or hurt or angry in some sort of way? The the we're so focused on them, we might not even be paying attention to what's

Gaslighting Yourself And Social Blame

SPEAKER_01 16:32

happening to us and our bodies. And so when our our nervous systems are there with us from from in utero, and they're there to protect us and keep us safe. There's no part of our nervous system that is looking to cause us harm in any sort of way. And when we are in the presence of someone who is looking to cause us some sort of emotional harm or is unsafe to us in some sort of way, logically we might be listening to the lies or the deception, but our body is feeling something different, it might be feeling anxiety, it might be feeling a stuckness, like a freeze, it may it might be feeling like the brain fog that's also related to the nervous system where where we're because the nervous system is just flooded, because it is always on alert. We're with somebody who is psychologically dangerous for us, emotionally dangerous for us.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

And that's where you get into this point in the relationship where you may start recognizing that what's happening is not okay. But then your body is so triggered, I suppose, is is a word, or it's it's in that fight or flight. And you're just trying to survive. And that's where a lot of people will say, if you know what's happening, just get out. But you're not even, you can't even think about how do I get out of here? You're just trying to think, how do I survive right now? How do I get through the next moment? And if you have other people in the household, whether it be children or even your own parents and pets, even certain belongings, say you have a table that's been with your family for generations. How do you get yourself out of there, get everything that you care about out of there in a safe manner? That's not even something you can comprehend. No, no, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And there's also probably intuitively a part in your nervous system, because I hear so many stories with the people that I work with, that when you do leave, oh, they don't make it easy at all. They will make it as challenging and painful for you as possible because they know you and they know what really matters to you. And so a part of you already knows that leaving in and of itself isn't going to cure everything, isn't going to bring overnight peace, isn't going to settle the danger in any kind of way. In fact, the danger can intensify for you if when you leave.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Right. And that is one of the most dangerous times in really anybody's life is if they are in an abusive relationship and then they make that decision to leave. It's always recommended you don't tell your abuser you're leaving. Don't give them the heads up at the best, is to just leave quietly and if you can cut off all contact. That's ideal. But in my own experience, my abuser threatened, I'm going to leave you. I'm ending this relationship. He would threaten it over and over and over again. He never did. And when I finally got to the point where I ended the relationship and I was leaving, I'm thinking, I'm giving him what he wants anyway. But no, that's not what he wanted. He wanted things to be his way. And he, if it if the relationship was going to end, he would be the one who walked away, not me walking away, because now I just did something he wasn't initiating. And it was, it didn't end. I would get phone calls, I would get text messages. Who do you think you are? You're not even, I don't even recognize who you are anymore. And of course, I was still coming off of this trauma of escape. And just again, my adrenaline is still going crazy. And I'm sitting there thinking, well, did I change? Am I somebody completely different? Am I making really bad decisions right now? It's so convoluted and it's so difficult to sort through.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yes, it is. It's because it's it's not simple in any sort of way. You know, it's like the the analogy I like to use is when we meet someone like this and get into any kind of relationship with them, because I've seen just devastation sometimes in work relationship or work partnerships or other family members, where it's a it's very similar type of dynamic. The minute we get into the relationship with someone like this, it's like we've we bought a ticket onto the Titanic, is what we did. And in the beginning, we thought, oh, this is like the world-class tour, cruise of a lifetime. I am in the most amazing uh ship in the world, the Titanic, best in the world. But just like the Titanic, these relationships are all destined for devasting, a devastating destruction at the end. Whether you stay or you go, whether you stay early or you leave later, or stay, you know, whatever time you choose to remove yourself from this relationship, it will be painful and you will feel like you're swimming for your life to save yourself to get away from this person.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

You know, it's interesting because I I thought of two things. I thought of being on the Titanic and you see, like they didn't see the glacier coming until it was too late. But when you do see it, it's almost too late. You can't steer away from it. But then even after you hit it, sometimes you're still stuck and you're thinking, well, hold on, let me fix it. Let me see if I can patch this up. And you're sinking and you're sinking, and you're still like, Hold on, I know I can do this, I can fix this, I can fix this. Uh the other thing. I thought of is my uh abuser even said, You never even saw me drowning here. I've been trying, I've been trying to fix our relationship. I've been trying and I've been drowning and you've been ignoring me this entire time. And I just looked at him and I said, No, I have been out in that water with you, and

Survival Mode And The Danger Of Leaving

SPEAKER_00 22:47

I was trying to hold you up above the water while you kept pushing me down. That's what the reality is. And I know that's the reality now. And it's, but even then, even after that, after because then I got out and then I was physically out of the relationship, I would still question, like, well, did I do that? Or was I maybe was I pushing him down? What happened? And again, gaslighting myself. You get stuck in this like cycle or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

And I got goosebumps when you were sharing that story, Ingrid, because that is exactly what it feels like. It feels like I've been working so hard to save this relationship, to save us. And if you had the moment to do that, you'd drown me to save yourself. You would not help me in any sort of way. And and and right, and even though we have those moments, those moments of clarity that come through to us, it's our mind, our mind gets hijacked in this type of relationship. So it gets hijacked in in a couple of ways. With the highs and the lows of the relationship, because this is the pattern, literal chemical reactions in the brain. We get hits of dopamine because, right, at moments it feels absolutely wonderful. They are the perfect partner. And then, of course, it starts to go down because that's who they really are. It's about control, coercive control is what it's about. Domination, them winning, their selfishness, their needs, right? And then it goes down, and then we're hit with cortisol and adrenaline. And of course, what does the brain want? Like in any addiction, it wants dopamine. So we're like, okay, okay, maybe today, maybe I'll try it today. And then, yeah, and then we'll get another wonderful moment. It's like, oh, this is the person I love and care about, right? They show themselves, and then sure enough, up so the up and down becomes very addictive in the brain. So it's a it's a biochemical reaction. Our brain is literally hijacked. And then the other thing that is is happening is with that betrayal um trauma like the trauma bomb that happens, there's also the cognitive dissonance. So this is the way the human brain also works. We're functioning beautifully, we're functionaling just just fine here. So the the brain goes between um the positive and the negative, and the positive and the negative. And because we're social creatures, the human, a healthy human mind will always want to steer towards the positive because we need social connection, we need those social relationships. So we start then minimizing the negatives, excusing the negatives, and focusing on the positive. There's nothing wrong with us. We're not we are not broken, we are working fine. It's the environment and the person that we're with that is toxic and disordered.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Right. So, okay, well, let's get into the treatment part then, because it's it's so hard to trust yourself after you get out of this relationship. Because there, I mean, for myself, I guess I can speak specifically for myself. I was wondering how could I allow myself, how could I let myself endure something that like that for so long? How was I naive enough to get involved with somebody like that in the first place? And when I went to therapy, the first thing she's like, first of all, let's correct that. You didn't let anything happen to you. You weren't naive. You were chosen. And I I believe we're all chosen for a variety of reasons, mostly because we possess something they want. And so so many things. And actually, I will also say that initially when I got out, I thought I was good. I was like, I just did something amazing and I'm good now. And I had this little bubble of uh confidence around myself, and because I didn't address it, I didn't address what I had just gone through. I just thought I did the work. I'm out, I'm good now. And that bubble started cracking over time.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

Yeah, and and that experience that you you're sharing just now, Ingrid, is such a common pattern because, right, it's like once we get that aha moment, like, oh, this is who I've been dealing with. It feels like, oh, that you know, like the happy ending is what it feels like. And it's like, oh, I'm all good, you know, and then right, and then we go out into the world and self-doubt creeps in. We might be being reactive in some sort of ways, we might freeze again, uh, we might be hyper-vigilant, less like reacting to to things, uh, second guessing ourselves again. And the and the reason that happened is because, right, you went in for for therapy and it helped the logical part. It was working with the prefrontal cortex here, your logic. And so logically, you're like, okay, logically, this is all, I get it, I get it. But nothing was being done to help the nervous system recover. So the nervous system, because it remembers everything, is there to protect us. So, of course, your nervous system is saying, Well, we just went through hell here, right? So we're gonna remember this and we're gonna keep we're gonna keep Ingrid safe. And anything that even remotely feels like this, oh, red alert, red alert, like so. The nervous system is just gonna keep scanning because it still believes that it is in that unsafe environment. It hasn't been down regulated to say, like, okay, we're safe. Like, we could remember this, we we can pull this up for future reference if we need to, but right now we're we're safe. And and I I do just want to say when when people are in a co-parenting or parallel parenting situation, it is much more, or say if it's like a business partnership, there's a or family relationship, so it can it could branch out. But if we cannot go no contact with that person, there will be times when our nervous system is going to be activated again. So the the work that we need to do for our nervous system um is like a continual everyday practice because we keep putting ourselves to some degree in an environment that is still dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Absolutely. And it took my body was remembering

Titanic Metaphor And Trauma Bonding

SPEAKER_00 29:37

everything, like you said, and it took it took a minute for my brain to say, okay, fine. I'm going to hear what you're sending me. I'm going to hear all of these things that you're sending me. Maybe we're not as okay as I thought. Let's let's do something about it. And I do want to point out, like, I when I went to therapy, when I realized I need to get in to talk to somebody. And I suppose therapy is not necessarily for everyone. And you definitely need to find the right connection with someone. So if you do feel like therapy is what you need, but who you're talking to is not helping you, maybe you need to find somebody else. But for me, I knew I wanted therapy. And I walked in and I told my therapist, I sat down and I said, Hey, nice to meet you. Listen, this is what I just went through. I know how my brain works. And it put it in this nice little box and it stored it on a shelf in my little brain warehouse, and it keeps jumping out at me and I don't like it. So let's take care of that. Let's get down to it. And she's like, hold on a second. We need to work through a few things first. And like, nice to meet you. But I had in my brain that there was this finish line that I had just gone through this horrific time in my life, and there was a finish line, and I needed to get to that finish line today. And then as I've gone through and over the years, I've realized it isn't a finish line. That finish line kept getting pushed further out. And because it's not really a finish line, it's a journey. It's just this journey that you don't have to think of it as a cumbersome journey of, oh my God, I'm never going to feel okay. I feel amazing. I am at the best place I've ever been in my life. But I also know that things may come up. New things may surface. And it's just this journey that I'm going to go on. It's almost, it's like you're working out. It's part of your workout regimen. You want to keep a healthy body, you need to keep your body healthy. You have to put in the work to keep your body healthy. You want a healthy nervous system, you have to put in that work.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Beautifully said, Ingrid. Absolutely. It's right, it's like a muscle that that needs to be exercised. And um, I I I um there was there was something that that you had said there before where you had, and I don't want to digress, but I I did want to highlight this good because this is something that I see very much with the the people that I work with, is that almost all of them are very conscientious. So when you went into therapy and you had said, I I I want this done, you know, like I I know what needs to happen, right? So there's a conscientiousness and an and for many an o overachievers. So so just this idea that people have like this stereotype or misconception that people have about the survivors of this kind of abuse is being meek or incompetent or dependent in some way, unable to care for themselves. Oh no, it's it's really what I have seen the exact opposite. It's it's very competent people, uh, very hardworking, very conscientious, like uh, you know, uh very empathetic, a lot of wonderful traits. So I just wanted to to to to mention that and and then uh going back to right the working on the on the muscles. So right, so it's it's you do feel better, right? You you put in the work and you start healing the nervous system, meaning that you're regulating the nervous system is what you're doing. Because remember, the nervous system is never going to completely forget what had happened because that would be bad. Um, so so but we can start to, when we start to focus on ourselves, our needs, start building our own intuition, uh, honoring ourselves, not prioritizing everyone else's needs over our own, and taking that time for ourselves to build that, expand that window of tolerance for ourselves, right? Life could be so incredible and so beautiful. And sometimes even the things that you never thought you could happen to your life, the amazing, wonderful things could come into your life again. Like life could be better than you ever expected it to be.

unknown 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

One thing I say over and over again is I feel like I walked through hell. I probably had to climb mountains and go through all these trenches, and it was awful and it was hard. And there were so many times where I just thought, maybe I'll just sit right here and just be content with where I am right here. But I did it. I kept going over and over and over again. And now standing here and just looking, the view is beautiful. It's such a beautiful place to be. And I just wish I I knew this was possible. Even my goodness, even when I was in my 20s, I wish that if I would have gotten as much self-awareness to today, if I could have had that, my goodness, who knows what I could have been. Who knows what I could have done in my life?

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Yeah, yeah. So there's a there's a little bit of of of grief for the time that had had been lost. But we also want to remember that all of this information is fairly current, fairly new. I mean, decades back, I mean, it wasn't even something that was on the radar, that people weren't talking about this, weren't aware of this. So how were we supposed to know? But but but the the term for this amazing feeling and and growth is it's called post-traumatic growth, is what it is, where we just it's like um if I use an analogy, it's like a phoenix rising from the ashes, is is what it is. It's a it's a better, more sparkling, wonderful version of yourself that shows up.

SPEAKER_00 35:39

You know, it's really interesting you you say a phoenix because I was just messaging with one of my prior guests who came on back when this podcast was called One in Three, and his episode is is called I Am One in Three. And he came on bravely shared his experience of abuse as a child, and he was abused by three separate men in his life. And he just shared with me the other night

Healing Is A Journey Not Finish Line

SPEAKER_00 36:07

a tattoo that he is getting, and it's a lot of different mythical creatures, and these these creatures all symbolize somebody who made a positive impact in his life. And at the top of it was a phoenix. And it's I was scrolling through the photos he had sent me, and I saw this phoenix, and I instantly teared up. I'm like, I know exactly what he's doing. He is rising from the ashes, and I know that phoenix is him. And then he explained it in the the next uh message he sent me, and I'm like, I know what that is. And that's it's such a such a beautiful, powerful visualization of you're not reduced to this small entity anymore. You are this grandiose phoenix who you rebirthed yourself, I guess, more or less.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yeah, yes, and that's beautiful. Uh a beautiful story. Um, and and you know, wonderful for him. And right, it takes a lot of courage to be able to share his story the way he did. But right, that that is what what the experience feels like. Like you have deserved every one of those feathers, right? Yeah, all the glow. You have you have earned every every bit of that, yeah, and more resilient and and stronger than ever.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Okay, so let's talk about how do we get to that. How do we become a phoenix? So, like I said, I I have had an episode on EMDR. Hypnotherapy is so interesting to me. And and I'll I'll tell you why. Uh, I remember being in college and during our freshman orientation week, they had a lot of fun activities for us. And one of them was they brought a hypnotist hypnotist into this giant auditorium. He asked for volunteers to go up on stage and he did his thing. And some some of the participants were successfully hypnotized or maybe very good at faking it. I'm not really sure. And some were not. So he excused the ones that were not, and then he asked the audience to, you know, follow whatever he was saying. And there were a few people in the audience that appeared to have been successfully hypnotized, and he brought them up. And it freaked me out because all I kept thinking is I do not ever want to be not in control of my brain. And that's what I looked at in terms of hypnosis. And it's probably also what kept me safe from ever using drugs in my life because I was always afraid of not being able to control my own thoughts and my own actions. So that's why, because hipn hypnotherapy isn't just I'm going to hypnotize you and then make you do all of these things unwillingly. So I am very excited to get into this part of our conversation.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

So please clear up my fear. Yes, yes. And it's a very common one because that is what most of us know. And that's that's how we were introduced to hypnosis, myself included, is the stage hypnosis, where it is about control, um, and it is about entertainment, you know. Um, and I personally do not use hypnosis for that. There's a a different version of the hypnosis. And just uh to say, the people that get up on stage and do that for the entertainment reasons, a hypnotist cannot get anyone to do something that goes against what they would want to do anyway. Uh, they can't go against their values, they can't get somebody to rob a bank or harm somebody else, you know. Um, so the people who are there at the performance are just fun-loving, want to enjoy themselves, and are at the core willing to get up there and do something like that. Because if if you're someone who doesn't want to do that, there's no way the hypnotist would get you up on that stage. So, so just to to kind of put that as a side note there. And so the clinical hypnotherapy, the kind that I use is called parts therapy. And what it is is actually the control is completely in your hands, it is not in mine. So, with the hypnosis, I'm the passenger in the car, I'm reading the script, I'm saying the words, you're the one that's actually in control and driving the vehicle and getting yourself to your destination because you are using the power of your mind and your imagination to self-hypnotize yourself. You're inducing yourself, you're hypnotizing yourself into that state. And with parts therapy, we get to the part of you, we we we get you to this hypnotic state, which you get yourself to actually, and we work with that part of you that's causing whatever the the challenges for you, whether it's rumination, self-doubt, anxiety, whatever it might be, and you give your subconscious some new tasks to do, some new jobs to do. It's like um positive affirmations, so to speak, and the subconscious complies. But I'll get into a little bit more about how that how that works. So all hypnosis is is a very relaxed state of being. Like I remember the very first time, like when I was studying to do this, and um my teacher had done this, I was so relaxed. I had never in my life felt so relaxed. And I said, this is amazing. And when you think about it, for people coming out of relationships like this, you haven't been able to relax in a long time. So just the ability to get to that state where you could let your muscles go and you could feel that deep sense of calm and deep sense of relaxation. And if you could allow yourself that every day, you are already working on healing the nervous system because you are, through the power of your mind, telling it it is safe and it could downregulate, it doesn't need to be hyper-vigilant. And so, with the words like the script that the hypnotherapist would use, and you're using

Fear Of Hypnosis And Stage Myths

SPEAKER_01 42:22

your imagination going along with it, uh, so many people think, well, you're just using your imagination. How could that be so powerful? So, so if we think about it, you know, if anyone's ever watched a scary movie or a horror film, I I don't I'm not a big fan of horror movies. They make me jump, I get anxiety, I can't look, I squirm, right? So why is that? Because logically, I know this is not real. Freddie and Jason are not real, they do not exist, they're not coming to get me in my dreams or in my bedroom, right? So I know it's not real, but my body, my nervous system is reacting to it. And it's it's reacting because, right, we're using our imagination. So the nervous system, the subconscious, does not understand the difference between what's actually real and tactile versus what we're creating in our mind. So it's reacting, the nervous system is reacting to what we're creating in our mind. So when we create this peace, this calm, this say new sense of self-confidence or calm or a sense of safety, our nervous system is taking that as 100% truth, just like it does when we watch a horror movie and we think Jason's coming for us. So, so but this is in a in a good way. And through the power of words, we're also able, and through this progressive relaxation, that's the induction phase. So, so through this, we're able to work on the brain waves, actually. So the brain waves, when we're in our critical thinking, everyday functioning, we have alpha and beta waves. Like you really don't have to remember all the technicality, but just it's like alpha and beta is like alert and functioning. When we go to sleep or we're getting drowsy, we're in delta and theta waves. So through the power of hypnosis, we get that critical part. Of us, the alpha beta, we get the brain into to delta is where we get it. And so delta is kind of that really relaxed. Like, if you think about it, like you're very aware, but it's like those when you're about ready to go to sleep, like you're not asleep, but you're getting very comfortable, right? You're you're getting ready to dream. And when we're in that delta, um uh delta brain wave, we're also very power, we're very susceptible to suggestions. So this is when we we start doing those affirmations for ourselves and giving us some new tasks because our brain waves are in alignment to to hearing that. And then we need to repeat. So that's the thing with hypnosis, too, is once once like I would record the pieces for it for my client, and then they would listen to it every day. And you say, Well, why do you have to listen to it every day? And what what is this with these delta waves? Well, also back to the same day, if you watch TV or YouTube or whatever you watch it, you see the commercials. It's the same commercial over and over and over again. And guarantee you, we've all been there where we don't even like we see the beginning or we see a symbol like it, and we have a jingle that goes along with it, right? Like it's been like absorbed, it's been downloaded into our system. Um and the watching TV, you know, many times we'll drift off to sleep when we're watching TV. It's because watching TV could get us into that delta brainwave. And then they're throwing those commercials, and next thing it's like, oh, midnight, I gotta go get that snack. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

That is so interesting. How long does it take to get somebody in that delta state?

SPEAKER_01 46:11

So when you're doing it for the very beginning, in the very beginning, it does take a little bit of time. So it takes about I would say about good 20 minutes for me to get someone into that uh deep hypnotic state in order to uh be ready to do some of that parts work and and and get those new tasks in for the nervous system. And and I use the word nervous system subconscious interchangeably. Um because the subconscious is just like our thoughts and our behaviors that that our nervous system kind of starts the process for. So nervous system is biological, subconscious is like, you know, up here in our our thoughts and a little more etherical. Um, so it takes about 20 minutes, but the more someone does it, the easier they can get themselves into the state, and then it might only take a couple of minutes. And if people practice it a lot, they'll be able to do that for themselves within moments that they could get themselves into that state of induced um hypnosis, that hypnotic state. So there's during the process of hypnosis, there's also things that I do to anchor the hypnotic state or the powerful suggestions. So, um, for example, like putting two fingers together could be an anchor. So it's like you close your eyes, you take a breath in, and automatically

Parts Therapy And Who Stays In Control

SPEAKER_01 47:33

all those powerful and wonderful suggestions that you've just received will come to you without any effort. It could be anchored to like the color red, a favorite number, or something like that. But it's through that repetition, the list, the listening, practicing the hypnosis. So then, right, we we can some when if we do it enough, right? We and by enough I mean give it a few weeks, right? Like you you go like this and you're like, oh, I feel calm. You'll be able to just create that for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

So it's almost like a Pavlov sort of uh response where like and for those who don't know, the uh Pavlov would ring a bell and feed a dog. Right. I think that's what it was. Right. And then I think it got to the point where he would just ring the bell and the dog would just automatically salivate because it knew food was coming. But just that that's really interesting. So with hypnotherapy with okay, with EMDR, you have you're visualizing like an actual memory and you're going to that memory. But with hypnotherapy, you're not necessarily doing that. You're just getting to the state and you're you're feeding yourself with positive affirmations, more or less.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Is that right, right? So you're feeding yourself with positive affirmations, but before you feed yourself with those positive affirmations, I don't know if you're familiar with internal family systems, IFS or parts. Like it's a it's another modality in therapy. And it's it's used very much for like narcissistic abuse recovery, where the therapist will, in session, like cognitively work through to find the part of you that's holding on to, say, some sort of negative belief, whether I'm unlovable or I'm unsafe or you know, um I'm uh worthless, whatever the negative uh thought that you're your belief you have yourself is tied to a part of you or a piece of you, uh, because we're all made up of parts. There's a fun-loving part of us, uh a serious part of us, like you know, there's the part of us that shows up at work, the part of us that shows up for our children, like we're we're there's different parts of us. So, so the part that's holding on to something negative. So, so in the hypnosis, I it it incorporates some of that concept of the IFS internal family system where there's the parts, it's part work. So that part of you that's causing the problem for you, that's making things difficult for yourself, or a very negative self-core belief. We go to that part of you and do that healing. The beauty of hypnotherapy is you don't have to, we go back in time to see if there are some traumatic moments, but we do not live within those. We do not, any MDR will do that too. A good therapist will say, it's just like we're checking in, like we're not going in there, we're not reliving it. It's like you see it and we're out. You know, it's just like a recognition of it. We recognize it, we're out. We recognize it, we're out. And same thing with the hypnosis, it it can do that. But with the hypnotherapy, even if you don't see anything, it's still working, it's still doing what it needs to because and I think even in with EMDR, a good therapist will say, like some things may just be closed off to the conscious awareness, and it's for protective reasons. It's the the nervous system, the subconscious recognizes that if this came to our our awareness, that it could really debilitate us in some way. So it's better kept where it's at for now.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

This is so interesting. So, what is the the difference between hypnotherapy and meditation, or are they very similar?

SPEAKER_01 51:13

So, so there is some similarities there. So with meditation, expect especially the kind that's the progressive relaxation where you work through the body, it's very body-based. So, with with treating recovery from um emotional abuse, you know, coercive control, betrayal trauma, it's very important to do this body work with the because we trap a lot of our emotion and really our pain within our body. So, so that progressive relaxation helps with that. It's somatic work. So, so there is that piece that's the same where it's you're working with the body to relax. The difference is guided meditation has does not put you into that state where you're tapping deep into that part of you. So it's missing that parts work, the that parts work where you're going to that part of you that's holding on to the injury or the trauma and and asking it to you know heal, uh, to recognize it, you know, supporting it, recognizing it for its good work because no part of us, again, is it's trying to harm us, it's trying to protect us. So it's so it's it's it's missing like that one very important clinical component in there.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

How do you know if it's working? Like with EMDR, I think you can measure it. You're supposed to like, or I don't know if it's all, I don't know if there's different versions of EMDR, but you can quantify it and say, like, how is this on a scale zero to 10? How much is this affecting you? Do you do the same thing for hypnotherapy?

SPEAKER_01 52:53

I I will. I follow up with sessions and we check in to see how how how clients are doing. And so so for for many clients, what you you know it's working when they start to say things like, and I find it very effective with falling asleep. Like they will come in and they will say, I haven't been able to

Imagination Brain Waves And Daily Repetition

SPEAKER_01 53:12

sleep for years. Like I have such trouble sleeping, or I fall asleep and 3 a.m. I'm up. And they come in and they're absolutely shocked, and they're like, I slept, I fell asleep, and then you know, I woke up at three, I put it back on, and I fell back asleep. Like, what's going on? So it's it's I know it's working because it's allowing the nervous system to downregulate and allow the person to sleep, like to get some rest. And then too, within in the session, I know it's working. A very common uh question I have is because usually it'll take about a whole hour for for the first session. I'll I'll ask someone, so so how long do you think it's been? And they'll say, I don't know, 10-15 minutes, and then I'm like, no, it's been like 55 minutes right now. So it's this we lose, it's like a trance like, but we're not in trance, we're very hyper-aware. You're aware of everything, you can move, you're not stiff, you're not on another planet. You're very present, but there there's a complete lapse of time.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Okay, does it does it help with nightmares?

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Do you know it can help with nightmares? It's so it can be because it's improving the quality of sleep, so it it can help with the nightmares, and the nightmares are something that are is very interesting because nightmares, EMDR, subconscious, nervous system, rapid eye movement, right? We we see how all of this is all tied together because EMDR, we're in the awake now, we're we're we're recreating our EM sleep, right? So our dreams will come up for us, um, still processing our trauma. And and sometimes people will have some very, very scary negative dreams, demonic dreams, you know, um uh predators, you know, like being chased, hunted, and and and that points very much to the moral injury that had happened to us, just the level that that we deeply feel how wronged we were, like how violated we had felt. And it could show up in the in the dreams. So this kind of work with the EMDR, with the hypnosis, because you're you're recreating some of those same sorts of stages of sleep. So it definitely does help to remedy the the quantity or the quality of the of the dreams as well.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Now, hypnotherapy is definitely something that you need to have a qualified individual to help guide you through. And you would never suggest somebody trying to do this on their own or with somebody who's not trained, or have like a friend, hey, come over, I want you to try to do hypnotherapy with me.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Right. Exactly. I I I you just like with the EMDR, you need someone who's certified, qualified, experienced with this, right? Because what can happen, especially for survivors that that we are talking about, is many of us will get into these states of disassociation. And so if it's not done properly, someone can then feel like they're disassociating, or they could actually like lock down in a freeze mode or or you know, like flop. So yeah, it it needs to be uh handled uh clinically and carefully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:46

Okay. I have actually just thought of another question. Do you use music or do you use anything else to help get them into that hypno state?

SPEAKER_01 56:55

So in the beginning, I used to use music, and that's the way I was taught because there's actually music out there that has those built-in delta and theta waves, right? Um so the music can help, but I have found that just the use of words, it's the language. So in hypnosis, it's um you don't need the music because the words especially it's called like especially Ericksonian language, works right for the subconscious. It taps right in and it's through the power of storytelling, and it's just the use of the careful use of words, and then also like the cadence of the words, like just the the way, you know, like it's almost like we could lull someone to sleep with just the the cadence.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

So if somebody realizes that they need they're in they're at a place in their life where they need therapy and they need to address this trauma, how does one know? And obviously they are they're going to do it with a trained individual to help find the best modality. But is there one that seems to work better for a specific trauma, or is it all just individually based? How do you know which one is the best choice? Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

So so it is very much individually based. So but what I have found is hypnosis, clinical hypnosis, can be very helpful when someone is extremely hyper-vigilant. Say the the they're they're on a high alert all the time, they're having trouble relaxing, they can't fall asleep. Because even to get to that EMDR part, if if our body is like when we're in this hypervigilance state cognitively, we're still in very heavy brain fog. We're struggling to get the cognitions maybe even clear for us. So either doing like somatic body work, doing hypnosis, those are very helpful. Um, and then EMDR when when we we sense like, okay, like I I'm not hyper-vigilant all the time. There are moments I become triggered and become hyper-vigilant, but um I'm more in a place where I can focus and tolerate like the memories talking about things, even can be difficult, right? So EMDR, you need to be able to be at that place to kind of talk about those things. But I have also found like it's it is very like specific to the client because I've had work where someone wasn't hyper-vigilant. However, we so we started with EMDR, but then there was uh the the a part of her, you know, when we've had decades of of emotional verbal abuse, psychological abuse, like we could take on the uh words and language of our abuser. So there was a a part of this for her that EMDR just wasn't able to get past,

Hypnotherapy Versus Meditation And Results

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

but hypnotherapy just because of the parts where it just we went right to that part and things just completely shifted for her. So the good work was already done with EMDR. However, she needed that at the end instead of in the at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:23

Now, hypnotherapy can be used for other things. It's not just to heal trauma. I think is it used for like smoking cessation, uh, weight loss and things like that? Is that something that you do too?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

I I I I like to focus now specifically on narcissistic abuse recovery, but in the past I have, and yes, it works like um smoking is one session. One session I have had people come in and then they leave, and then they call me later on and they're like, you know what, what happened? I couldn't care less about cigarettes. And then, you know, you hear people like 10, 20, 30 years later, still, I mean, I didn't work on them 30 years later, right? But but you know, I hear people coming uh to me in session where they've actually received hypnosis decades earlier for smoking. And they've shared, like, you know, it's 30 years later, I still don't care about cigarettes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

That is incredible. Hypnotherapy, is it something that you have to do in person or can you do that virtually?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

I do, I do it virtually. I used to do it in person, but then of course COVID came around. I said, all right, so how am I gonna do that? Uh so I found a way to be able to do it virtually and to anchor, like, you know, like to use those anchors virtually, just as effective because the the work isn't just in session for like the treatment of say like uh recovery from narcissistic abuse, it is that having to listen every day, working on the nervous system, the subconscious, right? So um virtual sessions work great.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:03

This has been such a fun conversation. Is there anything that you can think of that we've missed either regarding narcissism or hypnotherapy?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:12

Yeah. So, so um, you know, I I I I think we were talking a little bit about like um at the beginning we were talking about intuition or trusting ourselves. So I wanted to just give a little, like, if that's okay, like talk a little bit about how we could so that that your your your your viewers have something to to sort of leave with, like so we could do a little exercise on something they could practice every day for themselves to start to trust their their intuition, yeah, to to kind of ground them in that kind of way. Okay, so I'm just gonna ask everyone to just get comfortable and Pete put both feet firmly on the ground, all right, and then just like press the feet into the ground, really feel them in the ground, and close your eyes and take a nice deep breath in, and a nice long extended breath out, let it all out, let it all out. And now I'd like you to just take your hands and just place them on your heart, place them there, feel them there, and take another breath in. And out. And I want you if if there is something that you have some bit of confusion about, you're not sure, if it's something that is coming in from past trauma, or if this if it is something where it's your intuition guiding you in a certain way, if you have something like that, just pull that up for yourself. But if not, you could still just follow along. And I'd like you to focus in on your body and starting at the top of your head and just working your way down, sort of scanning it, going down, down your face, down your shoulders, across your arms, down your torso, your belly, your legs, all the way down to your toes. And now focus in. Did you notice anything? Was there a sensation anywhere of feeling? Just really, really, really tune into that. Notice a sensation. And then ask yourself, what is this feeling telling me? What is it saying to me? If it was about something that you weren't sure about, is it a steady sense of knowing or is it a panicky feeling? If it's a panicky feeling, that's past trauma. If it's a steady feeling, that's your intuition. But if there wasn't anything specific, just tune in and ask yourself what does your body need? Is it telling you it needs rest? Is it telling you it needs connection? Is it telling you that you need to breathe? Is it saying that you need to speak with somebody?

Choosing EMDR Or Hypnosis Plus Virtual

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Just tune in for a moment. Alright, and we're gonna thank your body and take a breath in, and now you can open your eyes. Okay. So um that's just something that that it takes like a minute to do, and because we're we're tying into the body, what is the body telling us? And with that trusting ourselves, when it is something that's tied to past triggers, past trauma, it'll feel like panic, it'll feel like urgency, it'll feel like I have to do something about it this second. But if that sensation we're having in our body is saying, no, it's pretty steady, it's feeling centered, it's feeling strong, it's as it's a signal that's there, that means that's our intuition. It's a knowing that we have. So it's something to practice that could help start to help ground us and start trusting ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

Is that something that people can do every day or should do every day?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:13

Yes, absolutely. This is something to do every day, even just the body work of that piece of checking in and saying, What is my body saying to me right now? Like, you know, am I thirsty? Do I need some water? Like, what care do I need? My body, many times when people feel it in their throat, it's oh, because I have to say something to someone. I need to share my words with someone, you know. Sometimes when we feel it in our chest, it's a sadness or a grief, and it's just recognizing it. Like, yeah, I have a right to feel sad about that, you know. Like I recognize you, I see you. Um, Dr. Dan Siegel says, you know, like you you with emotions, just name it to tame it. It's just it's just recognizing it to kind of release it and to let it go. Um, so it it it is something to do every day for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Is there a better time of day to do it, or just whenever you you can take a moment?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

Whenever you can take a moment, whatever works for you. And and I I did want to say when we were doing the breathing, also what's very important is when we are hyper-vigilant or in that frozen state, we're doing very shallow breathing. It's all up here. So there's a couple of really short tricks that people could do without having to count the back, the like the box breaths. Like sometimes we don't even have the the bandwidth to do that. So if we were to take our hands, put them behind our head, breathe in and out, the belly automatically rises. So if you want to, if you're watching TV or you're listening to a podcast or an audiobook, just put your hands behind your head. Or if you're driving in the car, if you take the tip of your tongue, put it to the roof of your mouth and breathe in. And out, you notice it forces a belly breath also. So it's it's that whole idea of helping because when we do the right breathing, we stimulate the vagus nerve, which helps our nervous system down regulate.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

That was incredible. Okay. Before we we get to our closing point, how can people get in touch with you or how can they follow you? Or what links do you have to share?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:26

Okay, that I have um a YouTube channel. It's Barbara Dechnowski, LCSW, and I also have my website, uh Newleaf Psychotherapy LLC.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

Perfect. So now in closing, do you have any final words of wisdom or encouragement you would like to leave with listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

Yeah,

Intuition Check In And Nervous System Tools

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

yeah. Thank you. Um, you are not broken. Um you are resilient and you are strong. Your nervous system was doing its job. Be kind to yourself and compassionate to yourself, but give yourself the nurturing and care that your body, that your nervous system needs, and you can heal.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:17

Thank you so much, Barbara. This entire episode was so informative, and I think those final words are definitely something a lot of us needed to hear. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:28

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:30

Thank you again, Barbara, for joining me today. And thank you, Warriors, for listening. You can find the links Barbara was referring to as well as her Beyond the Statistics profile in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode for you. Until then, stay strong. And wherever you are in your journey, always remember, you are not alone. To learn more, explore episode resources, browse a collections, or register as a guest, visit Beyond the Statistics Podcast.com. If today's episode meant something to you, please share it with someone who may need it. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media. Beyond the Statistics is a.5 Panoy production. Music written and performed by Tim Crow.