How Psychological Abuse Becomes Invisible with Dr. Sandra Evers I Ep. 143

Welcome And Why This Story

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hi, Warriors. Welcome to Beyond the Statistics. I'm your host, Ingrid. Today we're continuing with our Domestic Violence Awareness Month episodes centered around the theme with survivors always. My guest, Dr. Sandra Evers, is an accomplished anthropologist, author, and survivor who's here to remind us that domestic violence can happen to anyone. Sandra endured extraordinary challenges throughout her experience, but this is also a story of incredible resilience and most importantly, hope. Today, she uses what she survived to advocate for others, challenge the systems meant to protect victims and remind survivors that life beyond abuse is possible. Hi, Dr. Sandra Evers. Welcome to the show and thank you so much for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Well, thank you for inviting me, of course.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

I am thrilled to have you all the way from the Netherlands. This is very exciting for me. Okay, well, you have quite the story to share, but before we get into that, do you mind just um giving a little bit about yourself so the listeners can get to know you some?

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yes, I'm an anthropologist. I worked most of my career in uh in Madagascar. And um and actually during my career, I established uh what is now called the anthropology of children and youth. So my focus has been very much in my career on attention for children and doing research with children instead of talking about children, and that's something I really hold very dear. Um, in the context of our conversation today, I was actually very successful internationally and thought my life was going fine, and and or part of me knew it was actually not going fine at the home front, but because of my work, I sort of could uh escape that question and not really deal with it. And um, and I realized only after uh my ex uh sort of put his hand around my throat that I realized, oh my goodness, this is domestic violence. I never saw it as such, somehow, because it was what sometimes is called coercive control, which I don't like the term at all, because it's it's of course it's control, but it's much more than that. It's it's psychological violence. And I think we should name it for what it is. Because I was not aware that it was a form of violence. I only became aware of it actually since my uh memoir was published uh two months ago, that I realized, my goodness, if I would have been aware of that much earlier, I would have I would have seen it differently than just a difficult marriage where I have to change and adapt and be nice and be nicer and even nicer. So I constantly shifted my um comfort zone, so to say, and it had to become physical before I realized this is really not okay, and it's it be it went from bad to worse. So I was forced to basically uh think about a topic that I uh preferred not to think about because I've been hiding it for years,

Recognizing Psychological Violence Too Late

SPEAKER_01 3:48

colleagues didn't know, friends didn't know, and actually I didn't even know myself how bad it really was until it became physical. And when I came out of all this after a long time, because my ex actually announced one day, I think I can, and we were just having a cup of tea, yeah. It was not a fight or anything because we never fought. That was not the issue. So we're sitting having a cup of tea, and he says, I think that I can commit the perfect murder on you. So okay, um, he's very often said funny things, but this was really extremely concerning. I just sit a bit longer and he said, uh I couldn't react, to be quite honest. I was just stunned. Why would somebody who was supposed to love me say something like that? And then he said, and I think that you will end up in a psychiatric ward. I said, I think we better stop this conversation because it makes no sense to me. And although I was concerned, I just as I did with everything that was concerning in my household, for example, that my children had to call him sir instead of dad, that's already concerning. So all these things I'd I thought, okay, you know, concerning, but not maybe I can look the other way, which I was my profession in the end, looking the other way at the home front. I had work, I had the children, I always had something else, so I looked away from the problem. And I also looked away from this particular conversation. I didn't want to think about it anymore, went on with things as I did. And then one time he became very violent, and he actually tried to, you know, he put his hands around my throat and I couldn't breathe, and I went knock out. So it was not just a little thing, it was something really serious. So soon after, soon as I had my first opportunity, and this is playing at the time when COVID hit, so I was at home with him, which was a problem. Because before I could always escape, I could go to work, I could travel, I did my work, and now I had to deal with this particular issue. So at one time, I yeah, it was in the morning, he had been very violent during the night, also sexually. And I escaped with my pajamas on to the police station and thought, okay, I'm going to seek help. This problem is ending right here today. And I arrive, and the lady is actually quite nice to me, and she says, Uh, uh, who are you? I introduce myself and she says, Oh, we know about your file. And I'm thinking, My file? I've never been here before. Oh no, but your husband has been here already uh several times because he is worried about you. He says that you have uh a delusional tendency, that you are bipolar, and he feels very sorry for you, and he's really having the best intentions to help you. And he said, whenever she arrives here, send her home to me. And that's what they did. I basically was sent back home to the people the perpetrator of the violence, of the uh physical violence, sexual violence, um psychological violence, uh, financial exploitation. I was the person working, making money, taking care of his two children and my uh our children. Everything was my department, and nothing was his department. So I went back and I thought, what now? So I went to organizations in the Netherlands where um they're actually there to help uh victims, or so I thought. And I came there and they um said, Yeah, okay, we can make a report of this. But we usually wait for the police to actually point out that there's a problem in the particular household. And that was a problem because the police was actually on his side, so to say. And they said, Yeah, and also when you want to um uh give a report here to us, we will inform your ex at that point. Still has my husband. So I'm thinking, whoa, that's a problem. Because if he knows I talk outside the house, it's getting potentially exponentially uh more dangerous. So I went home and I thought, where can I go next? Well, there's no way you can go next, because what happened next was that my ex was so incredibly well prepared, he probably has thought this out for

Seeking Help And Being Sent Back

SPEAKER_01 8:27

a long time before he executed his perfect murder. Because the next thing I know, uh he had invited a psychiatrist to the house, and that psychiatrist decided that I was clearly in a manic phase. I was very calm talking to him, and when he asked me about my domestic life, and I just said, I am I want your help because I am a battered wife, basically. And he goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. My husband told me that uh you were sometimes making up things and that you're sexually overly um charged. Very funny way of phrasing things, which was not the case at all, obviously. So he said, Then I've decided that we're going to admit you to a mental hospital. And I'm thinking, Oh my goodness, I'm I'm I'm I'm a well-known professor, and this doesn't really he's that seemed to not quite compute with this particular psychiatrist. And and he says, Well, but our apology is that we have a second opinion. I'm thinking, oh thank goodness, because that second psychiatrist who then comes to talk to you will probably realize right away what this situation is. I had so much faith at that point. I thought somebody's going to help me. And then that uh second psychiatrist came in and then went for a walk with uh the first psychiatrist and my husband. They were gone for about half an hour. They they took a stroll through the park and came back, and it was just announced to me that I was going to be admitted. Uh minutes later, they had probably already called the police while um uh walking. The police was there, and I was uh taken away and I was calm because I was more in a shock than anything else. And he the and the police said, I'm sorry, it's policy that you have to be uh tied down uh on a bed. In front of the whole neighborhood, I was wheeled out on a bed, put it my hands tight, my feet tight. It was I've experienced this as extremely violent because I am uh uh a victim of sexual violence, and then death happens. What am I supposed to think? At least it's very traumatic, as you can imagine. So I um I said nothing, I was so shocked, and I was brought to this um place and and I was admitted to a mental hospital because he said so, and everybody believed him, and that to me has been very bewildering. And what is worse than that is that in the Netherlands, when you end up in uh this was an open word, but I've also been in close word because once you've been once, you get a big uh stamp in front of your nose saying psychiatric patient, and then in the Netherlands it's even possible to acquire um uh forced care, so it's easier to have forced care because then the patient uh cannot protest and they can do basically whatever they wanted. So it didn't take long afterwards. Then this was also acquired uh for me uh through my husband. He always prepared, he even prepared uh had ideas about the treatment. He talked as if he was a psychiatrist himself. So he um so I was admitted, and then uh first I got um uh a diagnosis, very important in the Netherlands. If if you want help, uh for example, psychiatric help or whatever kind of help, there has to be a diagnosis for the insurance companies to cover the cost. So, in order to be able to, everybody admitted to these places gets a diagnosis, ill or not, having problems or not, uh whatever I could have been traumatized that that I would readily agree with. But this uh particular diagnosis was I was bipolar, so you're depressed and manic in various episodes of your life. I never had problems uh ever in my whole life. I had when I arrived there, I must have been in my 50s, uh, really. But it's weird that you've never had it, and nobody asks, have you ever had these problems? Nothing. The diagnosis was there before the first conversation was even finished. And I they were not interested, in my opinion. My husband was there, he took, he took over the conversation, he told them about my problems, she's this, she's that, and psychiatrists were my absolute shock. This is the third one I'm I'm seeing, uh not speaking to, but seeing, because he took over the full conversation and says the same thing as the other two had already said: bipolar

Gaslighting Through Psychiatry And Forced Care

SPEAKER_01 13:17

and depressed, very depressed. So I said, Well, actually, I'm having trouble at home. It is the first time beside this visit to the police that I'm talking about this, and uh I want you to be mindful about this. And uh no, no, you have depression, and of course, you say these things, that's that's part of your um illness, it becomes immediately an illness. Uh so and um the delusions, what I was saying was delusional, and that was part of my problem. And when I said I don't have this problem, I'm a perfectly healthy, mentally healthy person. They said, Oh, yeah, that's you don't have insight into your own uh situation, your own illness. You you are in the state of denial about your illness. It's pretty bewildering, and then it went from bad to worse, it started with medication. I I said, uh, well, listen, I have a brain injury, was totally ignored. Then they decided the medication didn't help, so they decided for electric shock uh therapy. So I said, Well, listen, I do have uh brain injury, so uh this is a problem for me, obviously. And they said, Oh no, that's part of your delusion. So I'm saying, Well, it's it's in the medical files, it's just a matter of um uh you know checking it out. No, no, they they said that we have already done a medical check, you're fine for this treatment. And I said, Well, as far as I remember, you've done two checks, which was my temperature and my blood pressure. It's hardly a way to discover whether somebody has uh, you know, mental, uh I mean physically, uh, a brain injury, which I'd acquired when I was a child uh during a fall from the horse. So it was well known by everybody but this particular department. So it took seven times that I was actually very violently put down and um having this treatment for something I didn't have, but at the seventh time I actually was half paralyzed, and by that time all the paperwork was in, and it was discovered that I had uh brain injury, which didn't change anything. They had planned this the eight times, so I had to escape, literally escape the place, and by that time I'm already having a problem walking because something happened during the intervention, so my leg, my my left side didn't function properly, so I was walking and then sort of pulled my leg, left leg behind me. So clearly there had already been physical harm. So I realized as I was sort of much later, obviously, because of over a period of two years I've been admitted uh six times to these places because once they had acquired the forced care measure, uh it was very easy to admit me. But there I'm an anthropologist and I'm bored out of my wits in these places. That's nothing to do. You you basically the morning medication, the afternoon medication, and the evening medication. These are the highlights of the day, which to me weren't highlights, so I quickly they had all kinds of ways to not take the pills. Then they said they find we still find you so feisty. Yeah, I wasn't taking them. I had all kinds of ways to not take them. So they found me too feisty, more pills, so uh and blood tests to actually check whether I was um taking them. So but and I was bored, so I thought I have to do something about this boredom issue. So I do something that I'm good at, which is anthropological research. And I discovered there are many women like me in these places who also for some of them actually had arrived there voluntarily because they thought I'm going to get help for my domestic issues, and then discovered that as soon as you enter, you get your diagnosis, your medication, and everything else that that involves. So when after two a period of two years where he got me in and out and in and out, uh I escaped uh from the house, but he lived in my house. The child protection services, my my son, he had kicked out of the house, he was 16, because uh he started asking questions about his uh smart uh mum that all of a sudden was in a psychiatric ward, which was not something he could compute because he'd never seen anything funny with me. So he was, of course, his dad did not allow him to speak against him, so he was kicked out of the street at in Amsterdam when you're 16, a very dangerous situation, and then the my daughter, the youngest, um, was basically totally manipulated by him that your mom is uh mentally ill, it's very sad for her, and we have to help her. Uh but he was like pretending everything he'd done with me and with all these caregivers, uh, manipulation. He is just a brilliant manipulator, and I suspect that many of these men are, and sometimes women, are perfect manipulators. That's something I've definitely learned. I don't I never underestimated him, I thought, and still he was capable of much more than I could ever imagine. So I realized I'm not the only one as I spoke to these women in these places. And I thought when I get out, I have to first recover. That's the most important thing, of course. And if ever my brain can work properly again, because with this medication, you're obviously in a sort of big clouds, in a sort of tunnel that you can't get out of. So

Medication, ECT, And Lasting Harm

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I I have to escape the situation. My children are basically he had full control over the children because uh the son was already gone, nobody bothered about him. Funny enough and problematic enough. My daughter was in his care, and they decided that the father was the safe parent, because he had also told the services, childcare services, that I was violent and dangerous. Nothing is farther away from my personality. I'm a very kind-hearted, empathic person. So incredible. But why could he say that? Because he never bothered to speak to me. Because I just had last week I I asked for the uh files of the services, and it says that I am uh mentally um ill. So that is reproduced and reproduced and reproduced, and by being indeed in these wards, it gets further reinforced. Where there's smoke, there's fire. So but nobody ever even bothered speaking to me. So the reality was that my daughter was uh put in his care and he could live in my house because he'd moved into my house. I had already the house beforehand. So then you have a situation where he lives there with my um a daughter, and he is portrayed as the safe parent. I'm the unsafe parent, and I am basically having two options: either going back to him in that very dangerous house, or escape. And eventually, and it took me a while to escape because he told me, if ever you leave, I will kill you anyway. He was very explicit about it, and he said, I will take everything away from you. Your career, now he was already in the process of doing that, your children, he was also in the process of doing that, and your house. And that's basically all I had in the end. So I found it very difficult to leave my house, but I did to save my life, and I escaped to the countryside in the Netherlands, where I um had um just basically months beforehand started talking to uh somebody that uh was actually my first boyfriend, but I couldn't think of anybody else that I sort of could speak to because my parents I could tell them it's too difficult, it's too awful that their daughter is going through all that. So I could my parents are not option. Friends, I was actually quite embarrassed about the whole situation as well, so I tried to hide it very much. And this was somebody I knew when I was uh a teenager and hadn't seen for 40 years, so it was somebody that I trusted because I knew him when he was young, and I started talking to him, and he just on the phone and he goes, Sandra, this is not normal, you have to get away because this you're going to get killed, there's no way around it. This is really bad news. So I eventually convinced me to escape, and I could stay with my parents a bit, I stayed with him a bit, and then eventually um he said, We have to first of all get rid of these pills because you are a very, very smart person who actually I've been through a lot in my life. I worked in Madagascar for a long time, I've seen the worse of what can happen to people, and um. It doesn't make sense that you have medication. Oh well, I understand that you've been traumatized, but these pills are not making you better. So he we talked to a psychiatrist. He said after a long, long discussion, but to make that long story very short, then basically he said, I'm taking some rain in my house and I I take full responsibility, so but without medication. Then it takes you about six months to actually get rid of the stuff because it your whole body is sort of uh sick with it and sick without it. So it's really sort of a cold Turkish situation to get rid of these uh medicines again. And it was amazing because as soon as I stopped taking these pills and I was in a safe environment, uh I I recuperated very quickly. I slept a lot, I my social life was very reduced. I still remember sitting at the table of my friend, and and he says, Well, Sandra, I'm going to uh say something really difficult to you, but I have to tell you, it's time that you take care of yourself. And my whole life was geared towards helping people. I did that in Madagascar, I did that with the anthropology of children and youth, where you have a lot of situations where children are in difficult situations, and you help wherever you can. And he said, Now I notice you've actually taken you are actually taking care of these women you've met in these places, but now you have to take care of yourself first. And he said, I make it very, very clear to you by saying it's either you stay here with me or with those people, and it's not both. So I I demand from you that you all these relationships that you seize them for the time being as you are getting uh in a phase of recovery, and then you can stay here. And so I that's basically not a choice, is it? So I was very upset, and I found it very mean of him. I still remember I was upset. I told him in very direct words that I'm not happy, but the next day I realized he does it out of a place of love. It's somebody actually caring for me and seeing that I need to take care of myself first. So for about a year, my life was uh reduced to um this friend, his children, uh, my parents, and that were all the people I had around me. And I could fully recover from all my trauma, and I had a lot of trauma. I mean, every form of loss I've experienced it in my life, except for losing my parents at a young age, but I lost my sister, my one and only sister. I lost lots of people in Madagascar, I lost my help as a child, I lost basically everything. And on top of everything, I also lost my job in the sense that I could not return to my job because around six years ago um I was um I was going to a hospital for actually a simple checkup when the doctor said to me, I think we should do an MRI uh of your head. Uh, because of the time when you got your brain injury, we only had scans. So I want to see what's still there from that injury to know how I can best treat you. Because I was having a letter a lot of headaches at the time, but that was obviously also because of the stress at the house. And I also said all the time, you know, I'm stressed at home, domestic issues, vague, vague, vague, not saying anything to the doctor. But that doctor sort of surmised that there were maybe maybe it has a physical reason that you are having these issues as well, like tired, not sleeping well, all these things. And then he discovered that actually I have huge brain injury and a scar in my head. And he said, uh, with a team of old doctors, that um this is dangerous because their veins arriving to this spot where this um this injury is, and potentially ever any form of pressure on my head could be harmful, could lead to an aneurysm. So I they said we we really want you to stop working like today, and we will arrange it with you know with the insurance companies and so on that you're careful, but uh you cannot work anymore because I traveled every week to places, and the pressure of the cabin in the the plane is already too uh dangerous for your head. So basically I'm having this time bomb in my head, but you have to realize I've traveled like 40 years with it without any problems. So they're sitting there very sad, and this doctor even underlines he said this is the worst diagnostic I've ever had to pronounce

Escaping The Web And Beginning Recovery

SPEAKER_01 27:07

in my career, and he was not that young either. So I'm thinking I'm saying, Come on, guys, I'm still alive, I'm doing well, and let's not overreact here. But they were very persistent, I had to stop working, so I'd already lost my job and I lost my whole status because I was now labeled as this bipolar person that I was not, but I had this label huge on my forehead. So I was at my friends and I recovered from uh this uh all the that trauma that I've been through in my life, and I slept a lot. I basically slept a whole lot in the evenings. I'm laying on the couch, sleeping at night, sleeping, but really physically recovering from the medication I've taken. And I go totally within six months, I got off the medication, and I um I stopped running away from my trauma because I've been running away the whole time. Running away from my problems, running away from uh my my ex, uh later possibly my ex, but at my husband at the time, um, and just thinking this will resolve it. Running away also from my my memories. I thought if I have a bad memory, I started texting with somebody, or I go for a run, or I I run, run, run from it, and by doing that, I never deal with it, and I never knew that if you don't pay too much attention to it and don't make it a real big issue and that you have to escape and all that, that it's it will go away again. So after a while, when I was you know physically getting much stronger, and obviously mentally also, I I I rem I noticed that I I get a memory, and if I and and at the time I still was having, you know, this huge heartbeat and going up and up and up and up thinking, you know, I'm going to get a heart attack. I even ended up with a cardiologist. He said your heart is fine. So there's another issue that's causing this. I realized I'm so worked up about trying to get rid of this bad memory that my heart is actually getting out of control. So I should stop giving it too much attention. I should not, I should just try to breathe and not think about it too much, accept it for what these memories will never go away. But I noticed I shouldn't give them more attention that they require. And I realized because of my life was so peaceful that I very quickly my the the the children said something, or so I it it went away because my attention was geared towards something positive. And then that method worked so well for me. So every time I have a bad memory, I'm not in the least phased by it. I know that it will go away. Like water, it comes, the sea, it comes and it goes, and it comes and it goes. And and the less attention you pay to it, at least in my case, the less memories came, the more the happy memories started filling my mind. So so that for me was was my big breakthrough that I could heal myself with only a loving environment around me. And I thought I have to share my story. I have to uh I've seen these women in very difficult predicaments, and I'm totally fine now. I can talk about it, I can write about it, and I can share what I know. So that's when I decided to write my memoirs. And basically, there's a lot to laugh about my life when I worked in Madagascar, tried to survive in Madagascar, being very clumsy in their way. So I I wrote that first, and then I came to the more difficult part about uh surviving this um uh relationship and actually surviving femicide because he uh he he went as far as um trying to commit the perfect murder. And um, one of the times that I came back from an uh uh the mental hospital, he and I was not so what he did all the time was um if you're not doing what I want, particularly sexually, then I will call the mental hospital and I can just uh get you inside again because I have this paperwork saying that you have for a forced care measure. So um, so that went from bad to worse and bad to worse, and then he tried to kill me in a way that it looked like suicide. And I had the immense luck that I was uh clinically dead, but they revived me, you know, they with the with their their um uh methods, and then I was fell straight into a coma. I went to the hospital, but I woke up from the coma after about a week. So he hadn't reckoned with the fact that I'd already survived Madagascar for all those years. I was tougher than he thought. And I woke up and I realized I have to recover first, yes, but I have to share my story. So I am um not a missionary, that goes for only too far, but I'm very motivated to any person I can save from a trajectory that I've walked, um, I have to do that. And in the Netherlands, if you say beyond the statistics, in the Netherlands, every eight days somebody gets killed by their spouse or ex-pouse, which in the Netherlands is small, so you cannot imagine how statistically significant that is. And I thought I have to make sure that women um realize that uh what then is is referred to as I think it's very misleading that coercive control uh words, because it hides reality. Uh, because every relationship, in my uh understanding, has some form of coercive control, and I don't mean um that it's it's psychological manipulation, but if you get married or in a relationship, you talk to each other and you you say, Are we going to be um uh you know, do are we having an open marriage or not? You know, you have you make agreements with each other, and if you say, Okay, we're going to be faithful to each other uh in a monogamous relationship, then um um and the other person does not stick to that idea, then you're trying to control this other person so he doesn't do that. Or when you say every Monday you take out the garbage can because I pick up the children from the school, you want your partner to pick up the garbage can. So you make agreements and you expect the other person to to uh stick to it, and if not, you would like to coerce the person into doing it, and that could just be in casual conversation, it doesn't have to be something serious. But what I'm trying to say is a term like coercive control, it's it it shows, uh and and and the and the lawyer of the perpetrator will be very quick to point that out, it shows a sort of mutual reinforcing dynamic. It's between two people. Whereas if you call it one-sided relational violence, you immediately make clear it's coming from one side,

Healing Memories And Writing The Memoir

SPEAKER_01 34:18

uh it's violence, it's not just control, it's violence, and that makes an entirely clear. If I had known that that that what he was doing, that he just said uh waved off as coercive control, he said, Yeah, you want me to do certain things as well, and I want you, and if you're married, then you have to have sex. That's part of your uh sort of uh contract that you made with me. So he made that control absolutely more control than in a normal relationship. But because he brought it in in such a he said, I also do things for you that I maybe I don't like. He always could he always use that. So I'm thinking if if if if if if if that would go in front of the police a statement like that, he would always point out that it was a mutual reinforced process. So if somebody would have told me this is violence, this is psychological violence, I would have assessed it completely differently. So I think for the sake of women, because most victims are women, they're also men, of course, but it's very important that we stop veiling our language. Coercive control, yes, important that we talk about it, definitely, but I prefer you call it psychological violence, one-sided psychological violence. And and the umbrella is uh relational violence, one-sided relational violence with components like sexual violence, physical violence, psychological violence, and you can imagine call it what it is, because then women realize much earlier, and then also that that it's not okay, that it's punishable. And as long as you can make it sound as if where where there's two fighting, there's too uh responsible, that's very dangerous. And I I I I can't tell you how often I heard in conversations the following statements like, oh yeah, yeah, no, if that's normal. I sometimes have problems with my husband as well, and that's normal in relationships that the good times, the bad times, you know, all those things. I've heard it all the time. In that whole process that I was trying to seek help, uh, I heard caregivers saying these kind of things. And I'm saying, no, he violates me. He just he wants to destroy me, he wants to kill me. And because police, uh, but also the justice system and also caregivers, they didn't hear me at all because they had already they already decided who I was. I was this bipolar person having delusional ideas. He's exaggerating. And because of that, he could he could kill me because they sent me back to him all the time. They had no place for me to stay. So I was basically walking straight into the perpetrators den where he did his crazy stuff, and he had all opportunity to not only harm our children and but also try to kill me. And and that's why I decided to write it all down, and now I'm totally dedicated, all my breathing that I still have remained, even if he one day kills me, although he lives in another country, which is quite nice, but you never know. I will use all my energy to to help others, and I and that goes from very um little listening to stories of other people who've been through this, to uh talking to you, to um telling people about my book, um, helping people with very practical things. Anything I can do to make sure that other people don't go through this, and these horrible statistics will be reduced. Because I must say, in the Netherlands, I'm not sure how it is in America, but in the Netherlands, our whole care system is totally divided in little organizations vying for um you know money to be able to sustain themselves. It's very difficult to uh to actually have you need to have one place where victims know they can go, where the police is available, where uh you know the legal uh instruments are available, where the care uh situation is arranged, where maybe there is housing opportunities when there are is acute danger. Those things in Europe now they want to actually have this sort of one window where you can go, one place where you can go. And actually, it's so in the Netherlands we also have to implement that European legislation, but we are far from there. It's supposed to be uh happening next year, and it's still very much divided in little organizations, all trying their best. I don't uh I don't even blame the individual uh caregivers who dealt with my case, because I know how smart he was in manipulation, but I see that the underlying system of how we take care of people in in need or even in danger is very much uh splintered and not um not ready to deal with these kinds of very, very complicated files, of course. So um, and I follow a lot of what happened, what's happening in America of how uh how it is you have this legislation already for uh much longer than we uh we hope to implement something like that. Uh uh you know, it's now in the consultation phase, yeah, where people can give insights of how they view this legislation, but it still has to be implemented. And uh and I I we I really in that same text here also I I read the same what we then call a dwinger the controller, which is that coercive control, which is actually a very bad translation of course of control, in my opinion, because it's it it sort of dims it down even more. Um the meaning of it. Uh so I'm very worried that that we're making sort of the same uh mistakes that internationally uh are made. So so so it's for me an opportunity to learn from you, to learn from your colleagues, but also learn from other victims. Of course, you you also uh know what that's like. So I mean, when we prefer to briefly uh sort of prepare this conversation and and you told me about your story, about your interviews with other women, I'm thinking, oh my goodness, how strong will we be if we stick together? Because now we're also splintered, you know. So in the Netherlands, we now start, as from next month, with uh other survivors, we start a monthly seminar where we get together online so everybody can also, if if you're not having the opportunity to have free

Naming Abuse And Fixing Broken Systems

SPEAKER_01 40:47

access to all uh opportunities of leaving the house and things like that, that maybe online you can reach out to others, and so we can first of all be there for each other, but secondly, also, and that's very important, um, insist that whenever there's policy making, whenever there is legislation to be prepared, that victims are sitting at the decisional table, and that we not only come into the picture when we seek help, because we know exactly in the Netherlands we have these conversations among us and we say we know exactly what needs to be done. Why is nobody asking us? No, we're only there to uh no um not even maybe we are only there to uh sort of legitimize the existence of these organizations, and that's problematic, of course, because the these organizations are supposed to be there for us. So I'm I'm I'm just getting going. I love it, and you are feisty. I am, yeah, I I am. That's I I'm a very passionate person about what I do, and that was the case in my work where I've all my life fought for people who are voiceless, then I became voice voiceless myself, and now I'm fighting again for other women and men who are voiceless, uh, made in in this horror story that they have to live, and that's absolutely unacceptable. And then when you seek help and you're still not believed, is where it's really becoming uh problematic. And you could even wonder, because in I I thought a lot about this, is it that these organizations are incapable of helping? Or is it because the system has created such a protocol uh-driven uh system that actually even these caregivers can no longer give the care that they maybe they want to give in in a way that they seem useful because of all these protocols? Like, for example, if I go to this center for sexual violence here in the Netherlands and I hear that as soon as you do a report, we have to inform uh your husbands, then that is the protocol. So maybe this individual caregiver knows that this might not be the way to go, but the protocol decides that this has to be done this way. So I always make the distinction between the system and the people working and surviving within it, and I think that's important, and that makes that I want to move beyond my own story and look at the systems that that have you know created a society in which this kind of violence is frequent. Yeah, we we agree on that issue by now. Uh, so what kind of society do we live in that that this can be um done? And then once uh victims uh present themselves, they are not even believed. Then there's something really wrong with both the society we live in and and that we've created altogether uh our culture that is basically something that uh particularly women have to deal with. I mean, it's it's it's it's weird uh that when you walk on the streets uh and you're young and um and you have to dress a certain way, you have to you have to constantly think of how how is somebody reacting to me. I mean, I to me it it it it it really struck home with me when I arrived in Madagascar, and I noticed that all women in the area where I work, which was a desert area, walked around uh with their breasts uh free, uh so not clothed. And um and I was very awkward with that because that's not how we do it in the Netherlands. So I I wore a t-shirt the whole time, even when I when we were bathing in the river, I was still wearing my t-shirt, and then everybody was speculating on how many breasts I would have because they thought she must have something really exciting to hide if she is wearing a t-shirt all the time. So I'm so one night I realized I have to show that I'm just like them. So I took off this shirt, and everybody's going, like, oh now it's we're going to see the three breasts, and they see only two, and they are so disappointed. And then I realized how we have sexualized human bodies, particularly women's bodies. And there, there was nothing sexual about breast, it was the same as a toe or a hand or a nose. And so then you start thinking about your own society. What have we done? And mass media, which was not yet in that air area, has done uh not much favor to women and how we are objectified to um particular particular body parts. It's it's very disturbing. So I learned a lot from Madagascar and not only around uh you know what is what a physical uh body is and and and how people look at it, but also everything else. But it's an eye-opener when you look at other societies, how um how a woman is a woman and a leg is the same as the breast, etc. That there are no sexualized ideas about that. And for us, that's what we as women very often are reduced to. And I realized very young already that um I can better not wear a skirt. I I didn't like skirts because it was um potentially for being whistled at, or as if you're inviting these kind of uh remarks and and and intimidating uh statements. And I'm thinking it there's a lot of work to be done, and particularly in the relationship between men and women, because uh something is wrong in that, that uh that we cannot look at each other as humans, that we look at each other as sexual objects instead of humans with all kinds of wonderful qualities or not, but but not reducing people to that. So so this this whole issue of um relational violence uh brings uh societal questions of what do we want for ourselves, and particularly what do we want for our children? Who uh our children are brought up with social media, are brought up with the internet always at the end of their hand. And I I look a lot of these, what are these youngsters looking at? And I don't get very particularly happy about it, you know, it's about dieting, about uh looking a certain way, it's about a nose job when you're 16, and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, I thought it was bad, you know, living uh my life as a woman, but how would it be for our girls? How do they grow up? So it's it's our responsibility to really um take um stock of what kind of society we live in, and how we can reduce these staggering numbers of femicide and domestic violence, and something has to change. And I think that we as as as survivors are perfectly uh positioned to um to have our say on that, because we've all become victims to uh a very perverse uh individual, but also uh a perverse society where where clearly these these people can flourish. Because my pet perpetrator lives uh a life somewhere uh where he uh is um qualifying to be a lawyer, and the next thing, knowing him, well he will be uh defending uh sexual uh violence uh victims. I and that's how morbid this society is. He never was held accountable. How on earth? I was not his first victim. He destroys a lot of family before my family, and I'm truly, I'm absolutely sure I won't be the last. And so it's bigger than just my household, and it's bigger um than just the Netherlands, it's bigger than um than the world. It's it's something we all have to deal with, and um yeah, so so I am really motivated to do my part and to speak out. I mean, I uh I have a voice and I'm uh coherent um in the sense that my brain was not destroyed because of all the medication, because of ECT treatment, uh, which is not a treatment in my opinion. But anyway, so so I speak out, and that is something that I haven't done for a very long time. Professionally, yes, but privately to show that I, as an educated woman, also fell victim to this, is I have particularly the responsibility to speak out because some people have still the idea that uh women that this happens to are dumb or stupid or I mean I've heard it all, I have heard it all, and and and these women come to me and say, I have I I was a stay-at-home mum, so uh, and I'm not taken seriously at all. He is the successful man and has everything, and I nobody listens to me. And I it was an eye-opener to me that that people don't listen to you as a professor at the university, so I have the the vocabulary for it, I have also the academic knowledge. I mean, that's very handy. I can read and I do that a lot, I read all the articles, uh, scientific articles on these issues, and um, but I'm also a survivor, so I know what it's like, and I can understand, and I

Culture, Objectification, And Teaching Kids Early

SPEAKER_01 50:37

can, you know, do my part. So I am very grateful for women like you who have this very important podcast. I mean, that we we we should also get these things going here in Europe, where uh we can help each other that way too. I mean, you only need a computer and an internet connection, and you can reach out to other women. And if somebody would have told me, uh Sandra, this is not okay when this was you know, it's it is a web that's woven day by day by day by day. And by the time it became physical in my case, I was woven in so tightly, and there were two children involved, it was thought out uh perfectly, and I could no longer escape. So when people say why don't you just leave? I mean, you are the breadwinner, you have the you have the financial power to leave, yeah, because many people think that women don't leave because of financial reasons or whatever, uh holds them back. But it it it it is uh so complicated in the sense that I was completely woven into his web, there was no way I could escape. I knew that if I leave I will be dead, and but later I discovered that if I stay, I will also be dead. But that is and the process of manipulation, that psychological violence that is reinforced every single day, is uh is what's uh very misleading. Physical violence is very obvious, but mental violence, psychological violence is something uh you'll uh in my case I discovered it uh too little too late, absolutely too late. So I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to speak to you and uh learn from you. I mean, your podcasts are tremendously important. I just yeah, I thought I wished I'd I'd heard this earlier.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

I'm not I'd say I feel the same.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

That's why I decided it.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Yes. Well, and to your point, I'm also an educated woman, and part of what made it difficult for me to leave is knowing that if I had to say I was being abused, that would mean I would have to say I was a victim. And I felt that I was too educated and too smart to fall prey to something like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Yes, yes, because um the embarrassment is tremendous, and um being stripped of all your titles and all your accomplishments, and in my case, being reduced to uh a mental patient, mental hospital uh case, uh psychologically um uh you know disturbed that's the term he preferred, uh person, uh, but also a victim. A victim uh shows specificity, and uh that's why I've learned that from uh actually the Americans. You very uh obviously fought for the the title or the because it shows something really powerful, uh, survivor. We don't do that in the Netherlands, we usually call ourselves victims, and I call myself now very American survivor because um it it shows this emancipation, and um and it's very important that um that you think about yourself that way. I thought I feel so strong if I can survive something like that. I am incredibly strong, particularly psychologically, uh, because uh to I'm I'm I'm I don't have nightmares, I don't relive it anymore. I have the memories, but as I said, they don't control me anymore. I control the memories in the sense that I don't do anything with it, they will pass and they do pass. I believe in that and I'm strong again. And I have I have the immense opportunity and privilege to be able to live a happy life. I I I got into a new relationship, I remarried, I have wonderful um what they call me as bonus children, you know, wonderful children that are um of my husband and his uh former wife, a wonderful woman that I can, you know, um relate to very well, that the relations are very very positive. So I I had the immense uh privilege to uh re-re you know find my core back again in this loving environment. But then I also realized how privileged I am, so that makes me feel even more responsibility to do whatever I can to help other women and men who are in this kind of predicament, and um yeah, it gives me tremendous hope, and that's basically what I want for other women too, and men too. That it you know, um you can actually get rid of your traumas, you can um survive, and you can go from victim to survivor and everything that that that entails. But we have uh you to thank for that. I mean, the the term doesn't even exist in the Netherlands, so we are all victims, but that's why I use the American term survivor, because it means it has is embodied with meaning, so that's why we have to really choose our terms uh carefully. If you define your terms, you know what we're talking about. And survivor is such a term, a very powerful term, and in the same way, I think that coercive control is too mild, it's too veiling. Uh it's better to call it relational, one-sided relational violence with its components. So, yeah, I hope we can learn from each other and help each other and be inspired by each other.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

Oh, I think so. I I like the the term psychological violence. I think I don't even know where the term coercive control was coined, but here I think it's utilized mostly for the professionals when you go into a courtroom and when you have law enforcement who are finding it difficult to believe the survivor or understand the true full effects of what an abuser is doing to or had done to this survivor. And I think you have to understand that it was coercive. It wasn't an eventual agreement of these are what our terms are going to be. It was insidious control that, you know, if say, say the sexual violence, well, you the two of you were married and you must have consented to what happened because you you didn't leave. And so it's well, I consented because I was coerced into the consent. So I think that's where the coercion part is really trying to hit home that it is more of a one-sided thing. I understand what you were saying too, and that makes complete sense. I think like I said, I love the term psychological violence, but I think what happens there is people go back to the idea of violence and slowly eroding who you are over time doesn't seem like a violent situation. It just sounds like it sounds like a slow erosion. Whereas when you think of psychological violence, there is a massive screaming, berating, cutting you down. And if you if you haven't had that, if it's been that slow erosion, then you can start to question yourself, is that really abuse? Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 58:16

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I totally see it. And um, but I think me, for example, but that's very personal, probably, and maybe also um, yeah, it's I think it's personal, that when I hear cursive control, I feel terribly insulted because it doesn't do justice to what I've lived through. And um and and I think also it was made by um what they call professionals, um to to of course I the underlying message uh we we don't disagree there, but it it it's it's it's not as it it it it it makes it sound milder than it is, and psychological violence, I think it does show the the long-term uh issue because it's not as psychological violence is not just one statement, it is a process in which you dismantle somebody's personality and make you uh mid gaslighting, all these things that could come to come into play. But I but it's yeah, and I speak a lot because I'm very much on this term. I really want to I want it to be called what it is, and and I have had no victim that says I really like the term because it really helped me. They all say it actually was the exactly the problem because the police pointed out very quickly that my ex or my my husband, in whoever was the the perpetrator, pointed out very quickly that it was a mutual relational dynamic, that there was a process, and that it went both ways, and and then it becomes a very difficult issue to actually legally prove. So then the police here in the Netherlands, and that's exactly how it went with me, they said, okay, you know, it's it's what he says, what she says, we cannot prosecute something like that. Whereas if it's violence, and you violence is very easy to operationalize. What are the components? What do we have to look for? And it can, and and because it's it's easy to operationalize, you can also prosecute it much easier. So I wonder whether that whole term has not obscured uh opportunities. And actually, for the police in the Netherlands, I hear that from other victims, they very quickly go to this two-sided um uh element of it. And but maybe in the in America, uh police is also already more mindful and more trained on these issues.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:36

I think that's part of it too. So, yeah, to move on from coercive control, I do believe that it is a prosecutable offense. In I want to say in the United Kingdom, Australia, and I feel like some states in the United States do recognize coercive control as being something prosecutable. Um I will say that I can't speak for all of our law enforcement, but I do know that there are some law enforcement agencies, I hope to say most, that are what they term trauma-informed. And that is where they do recognize domestic violence as a specific situation in which they need to question more and investigate that situation more before they immediately write off as okay, this is just a little, a little argument between the partners here.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

That's very good. Yeah, that's hopeful.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

We we also have you mentioned like one cohesive place that a victim or

Green Rabbits And Institutional Violence

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

a survivor could go to. And we don't have that across the board. There are certain communities that have it a little bit more in place than others, but where there is sort of a team approach where there is law enforcement, medical professionals, uh, prosecutors, uh, other attorneys like family law and advocates, uh therapists, where they all work together. So then if there is a victim who appears at the hospital, the medical providers know to contact law enforcement here. We know we need to contact the domestic violence support agency over here to work together as a team to help that individual out. We don't have it everywhere. Some places they have a much stronger system in place than others. But that is, I think, that would be a wonderful goal for everywhere across the world to develop some sort of cohesive team or response team.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Yeah, because I I I was once at a webinar of these organizations where they were trying to find out what each organization was doing, which surprised me. I mean, if you work in a similar field, you know what each other from each other what you're doing. That was my first surprise. And then they talked about a concept that was entirely new to me. Uh, in Dutch, we call it klantreis, which is uh client journey. They were talking about the client journey. This, as a victim, you arrive in absolute turmoil at a place, and then you have to comment your client journey from place to place to place, shopping for what you might require. Yeah, that is particularly poor, no? Then uh the whole system is driven to keep the system going and not actually to help uh the victims who should be arriving somewhere and then it should be taken over from them in the sense that they can get what they need instead of making a client journey through uh through space basically, or some labyrinth that you have to find your way through. Because I really made that journey, so I really knew when I heard that term, I'd never heard it. It's really something that you know, in in in in for the professionals, it's a very well-known term. I'd never heard of it, and that's particularly bad that you have to make a journey in order to get uh some help. So I thought, oh my goodness, they have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:05

Oh, yes, yes. So one thing is so these are all the solutions for what to do to help a victim. But like what you were saying earlier is we need to change society before we get to that point. And I I would love to get into schools and talk to children about what a healthy relationship looks like and what an unhealthy relationship looks like. I don't know that we can stop the perpetrators from actually becoming perpetrators. Maybe, maybe that would help. But hopefully we would at least help prevent anyone from becoming a victim because they would immediately recognize this is not okay and I should protect myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

Yeah, that that stunts me that even also in the Netherlands that that we prepare our children with math, obsessed with math, and obsessed with language, and obsessed with all these courses, and nobody teaches them what human interaction is and what the challenges of it is, what social media uh role is. Like basically live a healthy, constructive life with your fellow human beings, and particularly in relationships, what is okay, what is not okay, if both our boys and girls learn that that a healthy relationship, this is the components it consists of, instead of all these exaggerated forbes that you find in social media. Also, sexuality, what what is that? Um, uh, and because like you see young men already looking at porn and things like that, they're thinking, oh my goodness, what kind of image do they get from a woman, from a girl? And what kind of idea do they have about sex? Is it intimacy or is it an act that you know is something that it might actually involve violence? That is really, really troubling. And I'm thinking if you teach our youngsters all these uh things in school, this seems to be an elementary element the absolute basic element of what human life is like. So why don't we do that? And I think we can actually, as survivors, come with uh curriculum proposals, and I think we even will get a good positive um reaction to that. I I I'm quite sure that. Um in Europe that we could get something like that off the ground. Because I say, as I say, as an anthropologist specialized in the anthropology of children and youth, I find it immensely important that we think of the next generation, that they don't fall in the same trap that we as women and sometimes men have fallen into.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

Well, and I think with especially with your background, the fact that you have studied specifically children and youth, that would come in very uh helpful. I had tried to go into a high school. I was trying to get in to be a speaker at a high school that I went to. I no longer live in that area, but I tried to get in to talk about teen dating violence because teen dating violence leads to intimate partner violence, if it's not actually intimate partner violence at that time. But I wanted to have a conversation and I just was not given the go-ahead. So I think this might be something that would be more accepted in Europe to start, and then maybe that's something that we Americans can look at and say, hey, look what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:34

Yeah, and maybe also um because our message is the gift, and we have to discuss how do we wrap our gifts so it gets acceptable for the people receiving it. So maybe we should call it different. And once we're in, then we will talk about uh, you know, our gift, how beautiful our gift is, and you can actually uh uh approach this in a very positive way by talking about what is a healthy relationship, and you know, then if by by showing what it could be like, you're also saying something of what it should not be like, so it's just a matter of presentation, also, and I think that um I also try to um speak very respectfully. I have I have now a lot of contact with several uh perpetrators that actually have now seen what they've done is not okay and they want to change, and we discuss this and they get very interesting insights uh also about society, by the way. So so I think that uh I always try to approach something very respectfully and and and trying to understand the other person's uh position. And I think also in in advocating for our purpose, we maybe should also think about how we can best present our gifts uh so it people will listen to us. So so I think that's it's many ways of how to approach. Sometimes you have to actually um be a bit harsh and be in somebody's face uh because not everybody needs the similar approach. But sometimes you have to be very gentle. But I always make sure that I deliver my message directly or indirectly, the message will follow.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

I'm confident your message gets through. So, I mean, that's part of while statistics matter, it needs to be more than statistics, but when you come forward with horrible statistics that others may not even realize how bad the numbers truly are. I the this podcast used to be called one in three because at the time it was the centers of disease control here in the United States said that one in three American men would become a victim of intimate partner violence. And the World Health Organization said it was one in three women worldwide. But, and I actually have not fact-checked this yet, but Oprah Winfrey, one of our big celebrities over here, recently said it was one in two women. And I recognized that the statistics are going to change, possibly due to individuals like yourself and myself coming forward and speaking more about what has happened. So maybe more people are coming forward and the statistics are getting worse because more people are speaking out about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

It could also be a good sign. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:28

Yes, it could be a good sign. But I think that you also nailed the society as a whole seems to be, I don't know, I feel like it's getting worse. So that I think there both of them play into those statistics. But coming forward with numbers, I I had no idea when I come out of my relationship that it was one in three women. And I had no idea how common it was until I was speaking to three of my very dear friends. And out of the four of us, three of us were recently out of a um violent relationship. And one had been out of a violent relationship for many years. So then I realized this is something that's actually very, very, very common.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

Yeah, and and and also uh striking that you never talked about it before among yourself. And I did exactly uh I did not uh do that either. So I did the same thing. So yeah, so we have to speak out, however painful it is, uh you do it for um um another purpose, and in the end it helps you. I mean, I never thought that speaking out would be so healing for me, also, that I thought, you know, I've told my story, I wrote my book, and now people can read it. I I don't if I don't feel like talking about it, I can just tell them just read my book, you know. I've told it, and I and I noticed as I tell it more often because I have a lot of contact with lots of survivors, I realize, okay, it did the edge is of it, you know. The edge was on it when I didn't speak about it, you know. Yes, yeah, it becomes a real predicament then.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:09

Yeah, I feel like I was carrying bricks, and every time I told my story, I was able to set one brick down, and and the weight got less, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:20

It makes total sense. You literally feel it that way. It's a metaphor, but it's definitely uh I can totally confirm that same idea and that same sensation that it lightens you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:33

So I have a few questions about your story specifically. So those those doctors, those psychiatrists, has that did they ever get investigated, or is this still something that's an ongoing system?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

That is a very fascinating issue that I've been uh first of all, I start very low-key, as I just tried to explain. So I contacted all psychiatrists that treated me, but also other psychiatrists, to respectfully have a discussion on how psychiatry, and particularly uh intramural um uh psychiatrists organized in the Netherlands. Because this goes together with a very rich body of literature in which it actually turns out that many of these so-called diseases cannot be physiologically uh proven. Nor the medication, the working of the medication can be uh proven of many of these so-called illnesses. I thought it's fascinating because that literature is always sort of hidden everywhere, and I really studied it uh very, very, very detailed. So I really wanted to talk to them like how do you look at your own profession when you're actually treating illnesses that are not illnesses? And because you are, I call it the green rabbit, and I mean by that is I always taught my students that um uh I had a class and I and the class was about priming, but how can I explain priming to youngsters that prefer their phone over me? So I said, I will make sure that by the end of this class you will see green rabbits everywhere. So I have this whole presentation about green rabbits, and everybody's laughing their tail off because green rabbits nonsense. So I'm talking about uh you know, uh children's films and all kinds of books and so on. And by the end of the class, I'm saying, as soon as you see a green rabbit, you can call me, email me, app me, whatever. It didn't take even five minutes for them to see something that you're trained to see, you will see. So they'd listen to my whole presentation about green rabbits and they saw them everywhere in um uh stuffed animal or everywhere they found them. And I was trying to show them that if a psychiatrist is primed for years on end to see illnesses, that psychiatrist, when you come to speak to that psychiatrist and you have a trauma, uh but you talk about it a bit uh scattered because trauma is not something easy to talk about. That person might say, Oh, you seem a bit confused, and you seem a bit hyper. And for example, they said about me um that I um I was I look so energetic. Energetic, usually for you and me, this would be a compliment at least, but for them, it is a huge red flag and it shows that somebody is manic. So for you and me, this person might be entirely normal, nothing wrong. For the psychiatrist, what you have immediately your stamp in front of your head, you are uh manic, and that means you're bipolar. So, so these psychiatrists are trained to see the green rabbits and they will see them. So I wanted to I wrote this post on green rabbits, and uh it stuck with the victims. They all realized that in in in through their uh seeking help, they had all become a green rabbit in the sense that they had been diagnosed with something, usually depression. And whereas these women had very real underlying traumas. Uh, domestic violence is it hits you at your core, obviously. And they were treated for things they didn't have, but their problems were never solved. So you had a situation where these women became addicted, because these medications are very addictive, to medicine medicines for an illness that they didn't have. So I was just trying to have an open conversation with psychiatrists on this particular issue, and they refused it altogether. There are just one or two exceptions who were willing to talk to me, and they actually agreed with me. They said I'm not I was not even aware of my own green rabbits. So so we have a long way to go because if if psychiatrists are not also trained in um society and dynamics between men and women and societal uh mechanisms uh as uh such in general, and are only focused on illnesses as if it is a biological uh term that like cancer or something else, then uh they look the wrong way, in my opinion, because we are all human beings embedded in a social environment. So you cannot look at this person as a biological self, you have to look at this person as a social being in relation to other people, and that includes relationships and sometimes very poor relationships. So I'm trying to have that conversation going in the Netherlands, but I whereas victims, hundreds of them have contacted me over the past months that all recognize what I said, but the psychiatrists find it very, very threatening. This is their business, this is their they are basically uh kings in these psychiatric wards. They decide what's happening there, and what's the worst of it? I met beautiful uh uh nurses there, both men and women, who really work there with good hearts, wanting to help people, and as a psychiatrist decides she needs an injection, she needs pills. He doesn't give you that injection, he doesn't give you these pills, he only writes a prescription. So these poor nurses have to grab me by my wrists and force this um medication uh in my mouth or in my um through injection, which is um they they basically needling me, and that is violence. Particularly for somebody who's uh had a history of sexual violence, uh forcing something down your throat and and forcing something in your smallest hole, your your skin is tremendously uh traumatic. So I hear from very many victims that in psychiatric wards where they were not supposed to be in the first place, that they get more and more traumatized. And it's very difficult, first to get rid of the medication once you've been prescribed and forced unto you, and secondly, to um to go back to uh your clean self and having faith in that you're actually not uh ill. Because many victims think in the beginning, oh I'm ill, so I'm going to be helped, but but your core problem is never resolved. So some victims said to me very clearly, they said, because I interviewed them extensively when I was inside with them, we called each other colleagues because we were all in the same predicament. And they said, Well, actually, um these doctors are basically drug dealers in white coats because I had problems when I came in, absolutely. Uh I was having domestic violence issues. Now I still have those issues, and I'm also a drug addict because I am I am constantly taking these pills that I cannot do without anymore. So you're thinking then we've really, really missed the mark, no, because we are putting people inside institutions that actually have very different societal issues, and they don't have a physical disease that warrants this heavy medication. So uh so this is a big issue. So it goes to institutional violence. So it's horrible that somebody who comes from domestic violence enters in a place where they think they might get help, enter a situation where they are uh enduring uh institutional violence. So this is a big discussion we need to have. And I want to have respectful discussions with these psychiatrists because I don't think they're evil people, but I think that they've been brainwashed by a system or profession that that makes them see certain things that could also be viewed differently. In Madagascar, for example, if you are um when you are what we then label schizophrenic, there it is a possession by an ancestor. It gives you tremendous status in society. And when you are possessed, you can even heal other people around you. So there it gives tremendous status. So it's all a matter of it is in the eye of the beholder. And if the beholder is trained in seeing what I call green rabbit illnesses, he or she will see them. So that is that is a very important discussion to have, and it goes hand in hand with this sort of

How Manipulators Win Over Communities

SPEAKER_01 1:21:27

care system that we wish to provide for uh victim uh survivors. Yes, thank you for that question.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:36

Well, so yeah, there's actually two things I wanted to comment on. One, you the strength of your brain is so evident because at baseline you had a brain injury from childhood, and then you endured strangulation, you endured medication, you endured ECT, and and the fact that you still were able to hold on to your reality and get out is remarkable to say, I mean, that's not even a big enough word, I think, but it's remarkable. Um and then, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:13

Yeah, I just wanted to add that this maybe, maybe, but but I also have discovered that when I came out of this, I was completely dismantled, I thought. And then when I was in a peaceful, restful environment, I discovered that my core was not affected. And I think that every victim survivor should realize the core is still there. You might be stripped of your whole dignity and everything you are, but your core is who you are as a person. That little girl or that little boy that you once were, it's all still there. And within that core is the key to your healing. You can do it all by yourself if you are in a loving environment where you can reach that key and take it out and unlock your own potential again. So, okay, I didn't know that. I discovered that in my own healing process. But I thought if my core is still there and I've been through quite a lot, maybe for other women or men it's also still there. And if they are just in a peaceful environment where they can reach out to their core and get that key to their own healing, anybody can do it, and that is so hopeful. I thought if I can do it, anybody can do it because I was a mess. Of course I was a mess after all that, but my core was never harmed, and that to me is the best revenge also I can have on my yes, yes. I'm still this full, bubbly, enthusiastic, energetic woman that I was as a child, and that to me is the best thing ever.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:51

I agree. And your story when you say you want to give hope, I think your story is such a powerful, powerful example of hope that things can get better. He literally turned the community against you and took everything away from you, and you still came back and you came back with a full force. I mean, look at you going, look at you go now. But the other, the other thing I wanted to say is it would have to be changed around a little bit, but that green rabbit analogy, I think, would be a good way to explain. I know you don't like the term, but the the coercive control of how if you continue to repeat, and it would have to be something that's not cute because rabbits are cute, even even green ones.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

It can be anything, it can be can be a purple elephant or whatever, but it's just like if you make people realize that if you are trained to see certain things, you will see it, and what you say is very significant. If you are told, and I was told that almost every day, that I failed my husband as a wife. Um, so every day it's like you put this the wrong way, you left the water tap going, which I didn't. I later discovered that he kept the water tap going. He told me that, and you leave left the light on upstairs. I didn't, but he had this whole so every time you're hearing that you're failing as a wife, in the end, I was thinking I should do better my best, I should improve myself, I should be nicer to him, I should do, I should not let that tap water go, I should not, you know, it's just these little little things that that is part of the commencement of that erosion. So because he told me that over and over and over again, so he create created that red rabbit of the that green rabbit or the the the purple elephant, whatever you want to call it, I became aware of my own failure. So I saw it everywhere. So I thought, oh yeah, I should do that because he might say that. And then you are seeing it all of a sudden. And before I met him, I was I thought I was this attractive lady, and man always liked me and always, you know, treated me like a princess, you know. That and then I'm entering this marriage, which basically I was lured into. I later discovered, and and all of a sudden I'm no good for anything, which is bewildering. And then if you hear that every day, then you start seeing that that way. Oh, you're so right. That's exactly what this psychological violence is, because it violates everything you are as a person, yeah, and how you look at yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:39

Yes, yes. So I have a question. Did he have connections or was he just really that manipulative that he was able to convince everyone?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:50

He was um manipulative and he was uh doing it uh in a smart way because he had studied law. So his it was beautiful how he always introduced himself, which because I'm sitting next to him and I know I can't speak because it will be hell to pay when I get home. So then he starts by I am a North American lawyer. So he already says, be aware litigation is just around the corner. You better do what I tell you to. And he said, My wife is having mental issues, and I really feel sorry for her. It runs in the family because her sister this and that. So he portrays my whole family already in a certain way, and I'm basically genetically uh predispositioned. So every sentence is saying something positive about him and something negative about me. So so it's always that always that one sentence. I'm a North American lawyer. That to me, it it I think that that he he always and then he he put out, yeah, I know a lot about um, I read the you know that thick book with all the psychiatric uh things to help my wife, always the kind empathic man, that he obviously was not, but but people can interpret it that way, and he said, Yeah, I read about this uh disease, and I think Sandra has it, so I think we can help her with that medication. So then he goes from being uh the lawyer to being the psychiatrist, which he has no training for, but he bluffs his way through it, and people and he can. Speak perfectly English. So the Dutch can speak English, but not as perfectly as an American or Canadian. So they are overwhelmed by the enormous text that comes out of this man, and they don't want to be too embarrassed. So they basically says uh yes, and they nod a bit here and there, and they have they've managed the the embarrassment of showing that they actually the English is not as good as as they think. So so all these things come into play. So he presents himself as a superior human being who is only out there to help his poor uh poor wife, and then people very it all fell for it. It and still in my uh social environment when I lived with him in that particular town, people still believe that he is the good provider, uh for I mean the care for his daughter, and that I am the crazy person. And and there's no proof for it, there's no proof whatsoever for it, because I'm always calm, I'm always nice. So that is the power of such a person, and particularly the combination between showing his erudition and other sides showing um what he what he what people interpret as care for me. Very smart combination, and he got a long way, and he could get out of the country with our daughter, and he lives abroad now with her. I don't know where they are, and that's it. So, I mean, because of the failing of the care system, he could uh not only live in my house for a very long time when I was roofless, I was homeless, uh he could even take my child out of the country. So he must be very smart in doing it. Plus, people in Dutch society, maybe this wouldn't have happened in America, but in the Netherlands, people if it's if it's too terrible to to listen to, it didn't happen, you know? Then it's easier to to uh to believe this gentleman than to uh actually have to listen to what this lady has to say on in terms of horrific stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:39

Yeah, I think I think that that is is common here too, is that it is almost easier to believe that a survivor did something to deserve whatever abuse they endured, because it's very difficult for people to wrap around the idea that there is somebody that is just that much of an evil person that they could inflict that much damage onto somebody who did not deserve it.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:07

Yes, and and and that is also goes for the victim, because for me, I couldn't believe people could be that evil, and particularly that I was married to that person. So everything that I thought were a bit weird or difficult to accept, I thought, but he's a good man. No proof whatsoever for that. So I just made myself believe, okay, he has this and this and that, but he is a good man, and when he uh pushed his his fingers in my throat, I realized he's a very bad man, but then it went already on for years, the the psychological violence. So yeah, it it is it I I understand where that comes from because people want to believe that other people are not evil. That's not very nice, and it's hard to listen to.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:59

Okay, well, Sandra, if people wanted to follow you or learn more about you, what what can they do? Or or look at your book?

Where To Find Sandra And Closing Hope

SPEAKER_00 1:32:07

What's the name of your book?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:08

You have actually a lot of books because of the anthropology, but books, and then I told my own story, which is my memoirs, which uh which can be viewed in my on my website. All the information is there. My website is Sandra S-A-N-D-R-A Avers. Uh, no, my letters are in it. Sandra S-A-N-D-R-A, and then G. Now, put it on your website. I will do that. I I'm I'm originally Catholic, and that means you have lots of first names. So, and Sandra Evers is actually a very common name in the Netherlands, and also on LinkedIn, I'm very active on LinkedIn, which I really like for communicating discussion with other people, also internationally. And then it's just Dr. Sandra Yet M. Evers, uh, so my name. Uh, so so my website has a lot of information also about my work in Madagascar and other things, projects I did, and so on. And I, yeah, so it's nice to notice that I wrote seven academic books, and I made a very deliberate choice to uh publish my memoirs myself. So I've self-published it with no uh uh sort of uh idea of making a profit or anything. I just it's it's it's a um a project of the heart in which I want to I give it away also to people that can't afford it, you know, to to really share my story for the benefit of other people. And I also want to know who reads my book. So I actually, when I get an order, I put it in an envelope, I write something in it, I send it off, and then later I can discuss with uh with that particular person how did you like it? Was it useful for you? And it's wonderful because of my academic work. I never had that much feedback in that sort of a personal way, so it's really nice to do it that way, and then you can really say, see how you can help people, and and I can learn from it as well because I hear other experiences and so on. So my website is the best place to go, and you can just put it uh on yours uh as if you like.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:16

Yeah. Okay, I I would love to talk to you for hours and hours on end, but all good things must come to an end eventually, I suppose. So in closing, do you have specific words of wisdom or encouragement you would like to leave with listeners?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:33

Yeah, maybe that's uh it's not okay. As soon as if it doesn't feel okay, it's not okay. That's already something that's very important, and particularly if these kinds of things happen to you, know that you have all your resources, your resilience, your recuperation, your care system all within yourself. Your key is in your core and reach for it, and that is so important because many people, also in the Netherlands, think I need to have a psychiatrist, I need to have a psychologist, I need to have a therapeutic uh uh counselor in order to cure myself. No, you don't need other people, you need a nice environment, yes, but you don't need professionals, they can be very helpful if that's your route to go, but know that all your capacities, all your personality, all your feistiness is within yourself, and give yourself that power and you will find it again because it was you've once been that little girl or that little boy who has built this beautiful key within you, so now reach for it because it's it's still there for you. So I think that's important to realize that. And I had lost that idea that I was strong within myself, and I was I was lucky enough to find that key, and I really hope that for other people as well. And I want to thank you for speaking to me. That is really I really enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:04

I really did too. Thank you so much. I'm so honored that you you shared your story here, and I really, really appreciate you coming on today.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:13

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:14

Thank you again, Sandra, for joining me today, and thank you, Warriors, for listening. You can find the links Sandra was referring to as well as her Beyond the Statistics profile in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode for you. Until then, stay strong. And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone. To learn more, explore episode resources, browse a collections, or register as a guest, visit Beyond the Statistics Podcast.com. If today's episode meant something to you, please share it with someone who may need it. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media. Beyond the Statistics is a.5 Panoy production. Music written and performed by Tim Crow.