Two Wives, the Same Man: Narcissistic Abuse & Red Flags with Deana & Lizzie I Ep. 132

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hi, Warriors. Welcome to Beyond the Statistics. Formerly one in three, I'm your host, Ingrid. Today I have the pleasure of speaking with Dina and Lizzie, two women whose stories sound like they're straight out of a movie. At different points in their lives, they were each married to the same narcissistic abuser. Through their healing journeys, they have joined forces to create the Surviving Toxic Relationships podcast,

Welcome And Guest Introductions

SPEAKER_00 0:55

where they help others recognize and recover from toxic relationships. Today they're here to share their story with us. Trust me, this is one you don't want to miss. Hi, Dina. Hi, Lizzie. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having us. We're so happy to be here, Ingrid. Thank you. I am really excited to have a conversation with you guys. Before we get into just our our chat, do you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself so that listeners can get to know you?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Dina, and um, the person that we'll be we'll be talking about, which is our ex, I was married to for 27 years. I had four children with him, um, left the marriage, and now I have a wonderful husband, amazing, for let's see, we've been together for 13 years, and four more kids from his side, and then we have 13 grandchildren. You're like the Brady Bunch then. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Times more. Right. A lot more. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I'm Lizzie. I have been a school teacher. I am still single. And I have four kids as well, and a grandson. And yeah, we're excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Okay. So Dina mentioned a mutual husband. I know that is something that I definitely have not had on the podcast before.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

And when you said a short some summary about yourself, we're like, okay, that's not a short summary. So we we probably were like, do you want to know that now? Yeah, I was married to our shared ex six years for six years after Dina had divorced them. But I didn't

Two Marriages To The Same Abuser

SPEAKER_02 2:42

know they were divorced within days of our marriage. He told me two years that he had been single. So days. Yeah, days. And then we were married for six years, moved around, and then yeah, that's where our story started was at the end of my marriage with our shared ex, and uh lots of red flags, lots of stuff was happening. Our marriage was getting really weird. I was locked out of a bunch of stuff, like our Verizon account and Marriott account and all other types of stuff. And then he was saying that he was off praying and having counseling with other people, and and I was like, this is not acceptable. He wouldn't let me meet anybody. So I left because I'd already been married once. So when I was sensing something wasn't right, my sister came to town and she helped me move

The Lockouts And Hidden Accounts

SPEAKER_02 3:35

out. And then in the process, I found out, and really I didn't find out ultimately until when I realized I was going to divorce him because I realized there was some cheating going on. But in between that time, that's when Dina and I connected because of our oldest son. And he asked if it was okay if Dina reached out to me, and I said, absolutely. What do I have to lose at this point? And Dina reached out to me within minutes and we started texting a little bit and we scheduled a conversation on the phone. I think we were on the phone. No, I don't think. We were on the phone for hours. We talked nonstop. Dina filled in a lot of the gaps of what she went through and the turmoil and the heartache that she had experienced with him. And at that point, I was still at that. I'm gonna file uh more of a separation and not a divorce because I thought our marriage was decent. I thought our marriage was good. So at that point I filed for divorce after she told me all that because I was like, this makes sense. And then actually, four days after my divorce, I went into my house, the house that we shared, because I had left, I left a lot of stuff behind, went to get my stuff, and I found some letters and cards on the floor that looked like my handwriting with his name on it. And I picked them up thinking, which ones are these? You know, deja vu and I was there alone, and then I noticed they were from another woman. And with that, she looked just like me and Dina. Because if a lot of people say we look alike in so many ways, but uh she looked like me, she looked like Dina, looked like a mixture of both of us, and there was something creepy about that because while we were still together, she put dates on those cards, so it filled in the dates that she put those cards on those cards was like dates that I was like, oh, that's when he said he was doing this, that, or the other, and so on and so on. So then Dina went up and I went on a mission to find this other person because we both sensed, and I don't mean to just take over here, Dina. Um, we both sensed that uh she was a really good person. Dina's daughter did find her Facebook page, but it was hard to like communicate through Facebook. There's a lot more here, but I'm giving you the reader's digest version. And then what happened was I ended up leaving that town because this person that he was seeing, we call her Jane, lived just a little town over. So I lived in a bigger town and then she lived in the smaller town next to us. So we never ran into each other, you know, it was easy. And then after I left, Dina reached out through Facebook Messenger and left her information and said, I could tell you're a really good person. Lizzie and I wanted to, you know, just reach out and see if you were still dating Rex. And I feel like Dina, this is your your portion because this was a good portion of your story.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Well, so so this is what happened, Ingrid, which it's crazy. So here he is, he's married to Lizzie, he's living a double life with this other woman for almost a year. And Lizzie finds those cards and letters with the dates, and then you know, she and I are like, oh my gosh, he's gonna marry this woman immediately because he's already been with her now for going on a year, you know, making a family with her, probably. So we leave that message on her Facebook Messenger, but we're not friends, so obviously

Jane And The Double Life Revealed

SPEAKER_01 7:04

she's not gonna find it for a while. Six weeks later, sure enough, she finally calls. And we didn't see when we looked at her Facebook, we didn't see any pictures of him. So we didn't even know if she'd just, you know, couple dates or, you know, I mean, you we could tell from the cards they've been together for like nine months, but like, you know, how together? We didn't know. So anyway, so she finally calls and she says, Is this Dina? And I said, Yes. She said, Okay, I have this really confusing message from you. I don't understand it. Can you please explain it to me? And I said, Well, listen, Jane, Lizzie and I just want you to know that we know that you were dating Rex, and we know that you're a good person. We could tell by your Facebook and by all the people who love you on your Facebook. And we just want you to know that we're positive that you did not know he was married when you were with him. And she's like, and I go, I said, Are you still with him? And she said, Yes. And she said, What are you talking about? And who's Lizzie?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

And so I realized that Lizzie had just been cut out of the history so that it looked like he was single for six years.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

And so So he went from you to her is what she thinks.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

So he did, yeah. So he so he went, you know, he went, was he was still married to Lizzie. So he was married to Lizzie for that, you know, and then for almost a year just having a having another family with her. And then telling Lizzie that he was going on retreats for the weekend because he wanted to, you know, get in touch with God and he wanted to, you know, become a better husband and be more spiritual. And he's giving her all these song and dances, and then he's telling Jane, you know, that he, you know, he can't, you know, he's doing like weight left weightlifting and working, working out at the gym, any things like that. But the first thing that poor Jane said to me after she starts to panic was, Where does Lizzie live? And so I told her, and she said, You mean that little house where the old man and lady where he's taking care of them, the house he lives in where he's taking care of them?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

You have got to be kidding me.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

She's like, Are you telling me that was his him and his wife's home? And I was like, Oh my god. Jane, there is no little old man and old lady. Like, and so then she gets even more panicky and she's like, Do you mean this red coat that I'm wearing is Lizzie's? It's not a gift from this lady. And I was like, There was no lady, and probably it's probably Lizzie's, yes. And so now she's in this full-fledged panic, she can't believe it. Her son had gone off on a motorcycle trip with Rex, and they were out of state. And now she's thinking that her son is off with this man that she doesn't even know, and he could be crazy. So she's like freaking out completely. And I had to talk her down that you know, Rex is yes, he's crazy, and yes, he's very manipulated and very psychopath, but he's not a murderer or anything, like he's not gonna harm your son. Um, calm her down there. And then, you know, she and Lizzie ended up connecting soon after, and so they started connecting all the dots. Like, you know, they had gone on this big wonderful motorcycle trip together for the whole summer, and you know, the gifts, the souvenirs that Lizzie had bought, somehow Jane was given those as a gift from Rex, and the pictures that were taken with both of them. Lizzie was somehow cut out, and then he was, you know, told her he was going on this trip by himself to just find himself and be a better person. And they just started connecting dots all over the place, you know. So Lizzie thought that he was going to retreats and all these different things, or being with friends, and that he was driving Uber in the evenings, and then, you know, Jane thought he was going to the gym and that he couldn't bring her to the inside of his house because he didn't want to disturb the little elderly couple, although he would drive her by or run in to grab something. So the dot connection was absolutely crazy. And this little sassy Jane, redhead little southern lady, she cut everybody's hair in this town. She knew everybody. And by the time Rex pulled in a couple of days later from his trip with her son, she had a police escort come and escort him from the driveway all the way to the house. She had papers served to him by the police. She had an annulment, she had a court date, and she was completely done. And he hops off of his motorcycle completely dumbfounded, and she's got the screen door closed. She didn't want to come outside, and he yells into the house. I didn't even get a chance to tell my side of the story. Which Lizzie and I crack up at today because we're like, what could that even be? Yeah, exactly. Like who was the master of disguise for sure? But this one, hmm. I kind of would have wanted to hear it just to see like how crazy the story could be. I exactly. I would have, I would have enjoyed that too. So this is kind of this is where we're at. This is why Lizzie grabbed my ear basically and said, we're gonna tell our story. This is what we're gonna do, because there are people out there like this that manipulate and lie and deceive, and they go ruin not just one family, multiple families or multiple people, women, you know, men. There's there, it's on both sides. So, you know, we both were working full-time, full-time careers. I let my career go a while ago, and and Lizzie's about to let hers go, and this is just what we do now, you know, full-time, and because it matters. Because it matters.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Oh, it does. So, okay, so they did get married. He and Jane did.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

The interesting part about that is Dina always laughs at me because I know dates. On June 1st, I believe Dina sent the message on Facebook Messenger, and we found out on July, I believe, July 15th. I could be off a few days, but just to kind of give you the the broad, like she said, six weeks. Jane married Rex on June 2nd, the day after Dina sent the message. So if she had seen the message right away, she would have never married him.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Facebook, come on, years ago. So obviously it wasn't like you know, this June and July. This was this happened years ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

And I would like to have a disclaimer: Dina and I are not professional Facebook stalkers. We were just women desperate to see if, you know, because everybody said you need to tell her or you would hear, oh, she's not gonna believe you anyway. But in both Dina and I were in mutual feeling that we needed to let her know whether she wanted to believe us or not. That was up to her, but we felt like she had to know. Like it was like, especially me, I think I was just driven to get her to know what happened.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

And you know what, Ingrid? I had never told Lizzie about him. Like I knew that he that that Rex was marrying Lizzie. I didn't know Lizzie at that time, of course. But my kids were like, mommy, you need to tell her. You went through 27 years of hell, you need to tell her. And I just thought she's not gonna believe me, she's gonna think I'm the crazy ex. Like, it's just gonna cause weirdness between all of us. And of course, Rex will be furious, you know. And then if my kids go visit their dad, it's gonna be weird. And I just I thought it all through and I didn't. So I still carried that. Man, I feel bad. I wished I would have, you know, because Lizzie was such a good person and she didn't deserve that six years of bankruptcy and all the things that they went through. And so then, of course, now we have this new person that we can save, you know. So we were just so passionate to save her.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

So, did you guys know each other before you started date? Well, you guys were still married, Dina. You and Rex were still married when Lizzie was dating him because you didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

No, they were married. Well, we okay, so we were separate. I mean, he moved out. Like he moved out. It was just a matter of, you know, in California, divorces take like six months. So it was just a matter of the divorce going through. He had already left. Um, so we weren't, I mean, technically we were married when they were dating, but you know, he he was out in his own place and everything. But of course he told Lizzy that he'd he and I had been divorced for two years and spun that lie.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

And he was so good that he was a good charmer for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Was there anyone before you, Dina?

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Um, there was nobody that he was married to because I was only 17, but he did have an affair with a woman right when he got out of high school who was, you know, he made a friend in another town after high school, um, a guy friend he played basketball with who's probably in his 20s. And of course, Rex was only, you know, 18 when he graduated high school. And so this guy was married with a child, and he started having an affair with this guy's wife, you know, as an 18-year-old. And before that, when he would take school field trips, because he was a big um, you know, basketball star and all that, he would take school field trips. And when he got a hotel room, he would actually rent a prostitute on his school field trips. Wow. This goes.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

So okay, so goodness. This is just craziness. Um, but the thing is, it's not so crazy. The only part that's crazy is that the two of you actually have like joined forces because this story is really, it's not unique. I think that you know, it happens quite a lot. And I know that my abuser had previously been married, and I know that after our relationship ended, I was very concerned

The Moral Question Of Warning

SPEAKER_00 16:55

about the person that he ended up dating. And I felt this sense of responsibility for her, but we had mutual overlaps in in friends. And so I know that she knew about me and she knew my story, and she still, she still did not believe it. Uh, they, I don't believe, are together now. They were, and um, I think that relationship has ended, but there is a this degree of responsibility that you feel for the next woman, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

I actually really love that you're bringing that up because we don't talk about that enough. And I feel like this is obviously Dina's like, because that was her in this position. But I just realized I don't think we ever talk about that. I know Dina and I have had conversations. What do you do? Do you tell them? Do you not? But I'll let Dina continue. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Oh no, no, no, sorry at all. No, so yeah, agreed. Like, you know, um, if if I were to go back again, I would have told her. Even if she would have said, you know, you're crazy, get out of my life. And even if Rex was like, how dare you? And I and did his big roaring thing. At least it would plant a little seed there somewhere, you know, so that when she started seeing the signs that were obviously going to show up, then it would give her some sort of a, you know, baseline for what she was seeing and feeling. But, you know, if that person has none of that and nobody's saying anything, you know, then whatever they tell you is that's all you've got. It's all you've got to go on.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Yeah. And it's gosh, it's it's easy to believe the person you're with, the relationship that you're in, because of course he was telling her all sorts of stories. I was crazy. We're all crazy, right? We're the crazy exes, and they did nothing wrong. And, you know, it just whatever whatever they may admit to, well, yeah, I might have said that or I might have done that, but it's because she did this first. She kind of backed me into this corner. I really didn't have a choice, or she ignored me, or whatever excuses there are.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Exactly. So, in other words, she's more crazy and I was just reacting. What could I do? You know, yeah, maybe I did that, but this is why. I mean, what would anybody do in that circumstance?

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Mm-hmm. Even even me knowing what I know about my abuser, and we were together for a long period of time. I still to this day, if his ex-wife, if it's if she messaged me or if she wanted to talk, I would be like, oh, I don't know if you're crazy or not. But the thing is, like, I know that she more than likely went through the same thing I did. I think it gets worse every time. Like the next relationship, I think it is worse. But I think she probably did go through something very similar. And she's probably not crazy, but he painted such a very strong picture of how nuts she was.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Oh, and they're so convincing. They're so good at it. I mean, really, truly, it's amazing. And if there's nobody to counter that, that's all you've got. And then, of course, now you're, you know, you love them. And generally it's the beginning of the relationship when you're finding out about their ex and you're already infatuated and you already think they're amazing. And so, you know, you don't want to believe it. So there you go. That's the perfect combination. That's the only truth you have, and you would never want to believe something about somebody that you feel is amazing.

unknown 20:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Okay. So now let's talk about what you guys are doing because you have joined forces, you do have a podcast. What what is the what is your podcast? What's a purpose? What are you guys trying to get out there?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

So our podcast is surviving toxic relationships, and we also have a YouTube channel and we have a public Facebook. Um, we also we're on a few social media, but for the most part, um, we're on LinkedIn as well. But for the most part, we stick with, you know, the bigger ones. Um, and you know,

Turning Survival Into Resources

SPEAKER_01 21:08

we have written two books. They're not published yet, they're going to be out soon, but we've we've taken the time to write a book for moms that are trying to help their kids, their daughters especially, see signs, you know, for toxic relationships early, manipulation, gaslighting. What do those things look like? And there's little exercises for the moms to do with their daughters. And, you know, that is hopefully going to help the next generation, you know, and this is not just for your daughter that's looking at, you know, boyfriend relationships, it's also for people in her life that are an authority, or even her best friends, you know, that might be manipulative and gaslighting. Because, you know, when our kids have been in the inside these relationships, or even if they haven't, they just don't have the tools to know how to deal with them. And if they have grown up in a toxic environment, then this feels normal and comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Right. If our second book is for the for the woman that's in the relationship now, and then it just basically is chapter, you know, gaslighting, trauma bonding, you know, financial abuse, um, all you know, betrayal trauma. It just has just chapter by chapter of all the things, 18 chapters, and you know, it's going to have affirmations and different things um for the woman. There's even prayers in there for her to pray, you. Know it's it's it's more of a faith-based slant to it. So just to kind of help you know her identify, oh, that's what this is, and that's what it feels like. And in both books, we put in our own personal experiences with each topic so that people can kind of identify with this is the here's a little story about what this looked like.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

So I was gonna say, and in the end, the goal is that each person will learn to have discernment in any type of relationship. Yes, they're mostly focused on the intimate partner, but it can go with anybody. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Oh, it really can. I had a very good friend that she was my friend during this relationship. And when I ended the relationship, we talked every day. And then I realized the reason they didn't like each other is because they were actually exactly the same. And she got mad at me one time and said, I'm not talking to you anymore. And I said, I am taking advantage of this opportunity. And the friendship ended at that moment. Um, so what are some of the things? I don't, without giving away all the details of your book, but what are some of the things if people are in a relationship that they could be looking for that are clues that this is actually not a healthy relationship?

SPEAKER_02 23:47

I think one of the things we focused on, and I know this is an easy one, is the charm versus character. We are so swept in by a charm of a person. Uh, Rex was very charming. My first husband,

Signs Like Charm And Isolation

SPEAKER_02 23:59

maybe not so much, but Rex definitely was very charming with me. And I always told Dina it was probably because he went through so much counseling while he was married to you and you broke him in a bit. I don't know, and he learned the trade better. But it's learning the difference between character and charm. Character is what you are behind the closed doors and outside. A charmer will be so charming outside, and then you may have a whole different human being inside the doors. So if you have that, that means that you're looking at a charmer, not necessarily someone that has good character. Just one of those patterns to look for.

SPEAKER_00 24:36

Yeah, and the charmer, I saw a meme or there was something of where somebody on the outside that they're being charmed by this individual, colleague, friend, whatever it is, that I don't know what you're talking about. They were always nice to me. They were never cruel to me, but of course they weren't because you weren't their victim. And that's the difference. They act one way with their victim versus the rest of the world, which makes you feel like you're the crazy one and you're the one that needs to change, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Exactly. You nailed it. That's exactly it. And when everybody, you know, my ex, I mean, from his neighbors to his friends to anybody, you know, I mean, his neighbor, they they lived right next door and they knew him since he was a little boy, and they just thought the world of him. You know, he was a gentleman, he'd open the door for them, he'd mow their lawn. You know, it's like you're right, you feel like you're crazy because all these people say, you know, what are you talking about? Like they're a wonderful guy. I've known them for years. But they, you know, his mother knew of the things that he had done because she was his mother, and you know, he got caught in high school and even arrested in high school. So she knew of those things, but she still told me that I was just insecure and jealous, and that that's why I had problems with the things I was finding out. So it's like, you know, you have all these voices. And um, to your point about asking, like some of the signs, I think really the biggest sign that people don't know what to do with in these relationships, or even before you commit to a relationship, is something just feels off. You know, and it doesn't necessarily mean it feels off because you know they're they're not at home when they say they will or they seem to be lying. It could also just feel like you don't feel entirely comfortable being yourself in this relationship. You start to shrink, you start to get smaller. You don't want to confront, you don't want to mention something, you know, you don't want to have an opinion, even if it's a good opinion. You start to change your own self and your own internal dialogue to appease them. And that right there is huge. That's a huge sign. Feeling, you know, you walk on the door and you just feel a little anxious instead of excited. Um, you know, I remember when my husband would be get home, the garage door would close from him driving in, and our kids would just go to their rooms, all of them. They would get up and go straight to their rooms. You know, those kinds of things, like just you're not free to be your happy, excited, passionate self at all times. You start changing. And that's one of the biggest signs, I think, that we don't quite know what to do with that because we start to believe that we're the problem. So we're trying to be better, right? We're trying to change, we're trying to be more pleasing to this person.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Yeah. And then I remember just there was like one day I looked in the mirror and it's like, I didn't even know who I was anymore. I lost whatever identity I had going into the relationship was completely gone. And I was lost.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Oh, that is, yeah, that's usually a sign later on in the relationship. Oh, yeah. That's that's like you should have left before that part. But but you're right, but you literally lose your way because you just you keep giving, you keep giving in. You know, you're you're shrinking and shrinking and shrinking, you know, or compromise, compromise, compromise to make them happy, to keep the peace. To sometimes you get to the point where you're just like, I just need the kids to actually have a decent home. So whatever it takes, you know, to where, you know, my kids can feel happy. So I'll be the yin to the yang. But you're right. And that's one thing, Ingrid, that that Lizzie and I want to do. We want to start groups for women where they can meet, you know, virtually once a week, come together and talk about these things. Because once you lose yourself, it's really sometimes hard to find it and to get it back, you know. And some women don't even know they've lost themselves. They honestly just feel like all these conflicting emotions, you know, and they've they've become a person that they didn't used to be, like you said, looking in the mirror, but they don't even realize that's how slow and calculated this has been. They don't even realize how they got there or that they are there. They're just thinking that they were doing the thing that any loving person would do.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And many because there's yeah, they're they're so twisty and and confusing about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Well, and then you find yourself isolated, which is another red flag. And a lot of times when you're at first in the relationship, it's more like they seem like they're trying to protect you. But then over time, you are now on your own little island with them. And by that point, you're so vested and you've lost connection with so many people that it also is part of the reason why you lose your identity as well, because the connections that you have are no longer there, they're void, and that's a really hard, painful thing. So I would say that when a person has been through abuse, the hardest you have the exit, and then you have the healing portion, which is the biggest part of it. But then what people don't really spend a lot of time in, well, of course, you could do it in all seasons of life, is the reinvention because yes, you have lost yourself. But a lot of times the reinvention can happen during the healing, it seems like, but a lot of times it's after the healing because if you ended up through all this trauma while your kids were little, you're in that survival mode, and there's no time to thrive at that point. So you're surviving, you think you're going through the process of healing, and then it's like as the kids get older, you're like, Oh wow, who am I? Right. It's a whole different phase. Whereas when I got divorced, my first husband, when my kids were all we little. So I was just I was going to school full time, I was working, I had four kids, and it was just me because you know, he got kicked completely out, and we had to get him out of the picture. And then I was like that for 10 years. But my second marriage, when I divorced, it was just me. My kids were all adults, so that whole loss was so different than my first marriage. Divorce. First marriage didn't seem as bad because it was so traumatic that I could, I just I could finally breathe, but I was in survival. But second one, when you don't have anybody there and you don't know yourself anymore, yeah, it's different.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Well, one thing I wanted to say too about isolation is it doesn't necessarily look like blatant isolation. It's not like I'm going to pick you up and I'm going to take you to this remote place and I'm never going to let you talk to anybody again. Mine used to do things like if I had plans, hey, I'm going to go watch a movie with my girlfriends tonight, or I'm going to go out for a drink with my girlfriends tomorrow night, whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, do that. You need to have a girl's night. You need to have a girls' night. And right before I'm about to go out the door, like, oh, I'm going to miss you so much. I really wish that we could just stay in tonight. And it just, it sounded romantic. And then I was like, okay, I'll the girls will understand. I'll hang out inside. And then just that repetitive kind of thing over and over again. And finally, girlfriends stop making plans with you because they know you're going to bail.

unknown 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

That's a good point. Love bombing. Yeah. Love bombing can be used as a weapon too. You know, it's like you wouldn't think that kind, you know, validating gestures of you mean so much to me and our time is so important could actually be abuse. Isn't that crazy? Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Well, that's how they, that's why they get to keep you in for so long, is because of that love bombing, because you can see how good it can be. And yeah, sure it can get bad, but look how good it was. And then again, he's so nice to everybody else. What do I need to change about myself to get us back to that really good time?

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Exactly. And that's where you start to feel crazy because you see the good in them. You see, you know, the wonderful times. It's not every single day that you're miserable and unhappy. You know, it is a pattern, though. It's a pattern. And that's where you really start to realize that this is not a good situation because you see patterns. But if it was every single day, we'd leave in a, you know, in a month or two. But unfortunately, it's a whole you know push and pull. You know, you I feel you pulling away. I feel you starting to doubt our relationship. So I'm gonna love bomb you and pull you back in. You know, I'm gonna isolate you by by telling you how we haven't had any time together, sweetheart. You know, yeah, it's it's it's incredible that you know that this happens the way it does, but it also paints a picture of why we're so confused and why there's such a cognitive dissonance. You know, your mind says one thing and your gut says another, and they're always fighting with each other.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Okay, so I'm gonna ask a question. How long before you started realizing it was not a healthy marriage and you needed to get out before you got out? And then I'm gonna ask a question that I hate the most, which is why didn't you leave?

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Okay, fair enough. Um, it's I noticed I okay, there were red flags even before we got married because I found out that he had had the affair um with the married woman, and you know, but I was 17

Why Leaving Feels Impossible

SPEAKER_01 33:56

years old when I married him, so I didn't even know what to do with that. So there were definitely red flags all over the place before I married him. Even the fact that one time we were having a hose fight and you know, I we were watering the or washing the car, and I flicked him with the hose and he got mad. And I was like, what have I done? But within two years, I saw that that there was an actual pattern of him not being home like he should have been home. Things were weird, something was off. And I found all of these back then in the 80s, there were 900 phone calls on your phone bill, and they were basically explicit phone calls. And I found this huge bill of all these 900 phone calls on our phone bill, and I was dumbfounded. And he told me that the neighbor kid came in every day for three months and and did this. I'm like, okay, okay. And so I packed up and took, we we had a baby at that point. I took the baby and I left. So at that point, I knew that there was something way wrong. But, you know, it's it's a nuanced answer to say, why didn't I leave? Because I left him nine times in that 27 years. And it's easy to look from the outside and be like, okay, you're definitely you have the problem. And I did. I was codependent. I was completely confused. I was completely dumbfounded and didn't understand what this was. But, you know, every time that, you know, that I would leave, I'd pack up the kids and I would move. I would be like, I'm drawing a line in the sand that this sexual indiscretion that you keep doing cannot happen anymore. And then I would catch him and then he would fall apart. He would be crying and begging, you know, and doing these huge gestures, like, you know, running three miles in the rain to me with a wet, soggy love note in his pocket and going to therapy and going to the pastor, and you know, just, you know, and then I would have the pastor calling me, and I'd have my sister calling me, and I would have other people calling me saying, Look, this guy adores you. He's devastated. What more do you want him to do to prove that he's sorry and that he, you know, that he doesn't want to be this person? And so now I've got this situation where by now we have a couple of kids, and I'm thinking that he's the victim of whatever this is, and that he doesn't want to be this person, and he now needs me to help him not be this person, right? So you add that in to the fact that you love this person and you have children with them. And by the way, if you left, you'd be too stinking broke because he had so much financial crap that he was hiding and lying about and doing that we were always poor. And when you put that all in there, it's like, and people are on the outside are telling you, he's a good guy. He's just caught up in some whatever, you know, he can get help and you can be happy again. And then on top of all that, I had a strong faith in God. And I truly believe that God, you know, not only helped people to get better, but also was very pro-marriage, pro-family. Why wouldn't he answer my prayers? And that was very much confirmed by the church that I went to and by the pastor that I was, you know, counseling with. So you throw all that together and it kind of helps you understand the crazy pie that's happening. But at some point, the patterns keep going, and you just, you know, you start hearing the voices that are telling you something different, and you start to slowly wake up. And so that's kind of how it happened for me.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Did you have like one specific thing that you said that's the last straw I'm out? Or was it, like you said, kind of a slow awakening?

SPEAKER_01 37:40

It was both. It was both. During the 27 years, you know, there were multiple sexual indiscretions that were happening. And of course, each one pulled me further away from him and my affection for him and my trust, obviously, of him. But there definitely was one final straw. And that was he had actually been, from what I thought, clean, you know, no, no sexual indiscretions, because his was like adult, seedy adult shops and things like that. And um, you know, but it hadn't been an actual person person, except for there was one occasion where there was a person, but it was just a fling kind of thing. But he'd been, you know, he'd gone through this intensive um sexual addiction recovery program that he lived there for six months. And when he came back, I just had all this renewed hope. He seemed he apologized to me like for reels, like it seemed like he really understood what he had done and meant it. And so we were happy, and the kids started moving out, they were older, they started all moving out, and it was just he and I. And so I didn't have that added stress of him being mean to our children and just, you know, them just like, ugh, you know, it was just him and I. And so we were driving out off after this honeymoon trip we had had, and all of a sudden his phone rings, and of course I answer it because he's driving, and there's a woman's voice on the phone, and she's like, and it's a blocked number, and I could tell she was outside, so I knew it wasn't a sales call, and she was like, Who is this? And I said, No, no, you called this phone, who is this? She's like, No, I asked you first, who is this? And you know, that knowing by then you get this knowing feeling, right? In your gut, like you feel kind of nauseous and kind of gross, and you just know. And I was like, and she hung up. And then I just looked at him, and of course, he's like, Look, whatever that was, I have been clean and doing great for this number of you know, two or three years. It is, I did not do anything. And I, you know, that was the awful part when you didn't have proof, but you felt it and you kind of knew it in your heart, but you didn't have proof. So the next morning when he went off to work, I went and just started doing all the all the like phone hacking and everything I could do, you know, and I just had to because it was I couldn't live this way anymore in the in-between for sometimes a year where you don't find anything, but you know something happened. And sure enough, I found this email account that I didn't even know he had. And in that email account, he had been seeking out um prostitutes on Craigslist for just sexual favors. And I hope I can say this on your podcast because if not, oh yeah. There's been a lot on this podcast. Yeah. Okay, okay. All right, then you don't have to delete it. But yeah, so he had so he would go on a trip with my dad, and that my dad and him would go on these fun trips, like, you know, to all these sports events and all these, you know, fun things. Well, what he would do is he would secure the hotel room and get to the hotel early before my dad got there, and that gave him time to call people on Craigslist and have sexual encounters while he had the hotel. And I looked at these and I was like dumbfounded. Like, I mean, of all the things, you know, and so then when I confronted him on it, he his his always his little trick was, I'm gonna confess everything to her because that makes her feel like I am on the path to healing. So in that tearful confession to try to get me to, you know, take him back, he said, you know, that he had actually been having an affair with a woman at work. And you know, it's funny, like I feel like you just get to this point where you're so done that there are no emotions anymore. Like you're not angry and screaming at him, you're not bawling in the car. You know, I mean, I did some crying, but it wasn't like a like I'm gonna miss him or I'm sad or I don't have a family anymore. It was like that sucks for me, you know, to be here. But I was so resolute. He could have done anything and it would not have mattered. Like I at this point, I knew that I knew that I knew that this thing was over, and that's what I needed. I'm such a perfectionist. I'm so afraid of failure. I needed that resolute in my brain that this was never gonna change. And at that moment, that's when I was done.

SPEAKER_00 42:11

Yeah, and you have that disconnect. I remember at one point mine asked me, Do you hate me? And I looked at him and I thought about it before I answered. And I honestly said, I nothing you. Like there was just nothing left.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Yes, you're right. You just get to that point, and like it doesn't matter what they do. There, they can't push those buttons in any capacity, you know, manipulation, control, they can't make you love them, they can't make you feel sorry for them, they can't make you hate them. It's just gone.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

And I liked how my therapist put it after my first situation, my first husband, and that was they killed it, and now we need to give you or give it a Christian burial. So it's like, Oh, I like that. That's so true. It's just let's dig a hole and let's put it in there.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

So, what about you, Lizzie? Did you have, I mean, it was a much shorter time frame that you were married.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah, you know, there was one moment a year or two before the like I left because with a second marriage, because I went through so much trauma in my first, I don't care. Like you put me through crap, I'm out. I I had a you have a whole different mindset. You're just more protective because you're first of all, you know what it's like to live on your own. So you're like, I can do it. I did it before, I'll do it again. Doesn't take away the grief, the pain, the heartache, but it does give you a sense of peace. But there was one time right before his oldest daughter's wedding, that we were getting ready to leave. So he went to go get the car rental because we were gonna rent a car for this drive to the wedding. And then what happened was he left his phone. So I picked up the phone, and it was so weird because I see text from other women. And in the past, what I've done was I've been able to have access to his phone, he would give me his information, blah, blah, blah. But I was able to read all these texts from like three different women. And I was just, he walked in and he saw my face and he said, You know, right? And I said, Yeah, we're done. I was like, at that point, I was done. Here we were, getting ready to go to his daughter's wedding. And He like followed me around the house. I said, just leave me alone. Just I mean, I just was so shocked that that that could even happen. And I really was at that point, I'm not gonna stay. I've been through too much in my first marriage. I don't need to go through this again. First, then all of a sudden, I obviously I stayed. But then when the second time things were getting weird, I left. And I think that's why when Dina was telling me everything at that point, it was like, Yeah, I'm I'm not going through this again. I've been through so much heartache the first time around. I was hurting, I was disgusted, I still dealt with all those emotions, but it was so easier to chop it off. It was so much easier the second time than it was the first time, unfortunately. I know I had a lot of shame and embarrassment because I thought, how did I get here again? Right? That was the hardest thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:24

And he would also threaten suicide in both of our relationships. That one made it really, really hard when it was like suicide manipulation. Yeah, I'm gonna kill myself, you know, I'm I'm gonna kill myself right now. I mean, just we went through that trauma too, and that makes it even more crazy.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Well, I think at that point, when they know that you're leaving or you're on your way out, they pull out all the stops, whatever they can do, whatever they can say to try to keep you where you are.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

I agree. I agree, definitely. And that's where we always warn women, and you know, especially women. I mean, men, men get these kinds of abuse too, but we especially warn women like you need to have a quiet exit strategy because you just don't know how crazy this person can become once they realize they've lost control. And so, especially if this person is a gun owner and things like that, or even if they're not, it's really best to start planning, quietly putting away money. You know, don't

Exit Strategy Healing And Hope

SPEAKER_01 46:20

tell anybody unless you know for a fact you can trust them and just make this quiet plan.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Well, I think that's part of the problem, too, is because you think that you can trust all of these people. You have all these people in your circle, and then all of a sudden you realize that they are not your friend. They're not on your side. Um, and and that makes it difficult too to narrow it down to who can you trust. You can't even trust yourself anymore by that, by the time you get to that point.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

That's so true, Ingrid. And honestly, after my 27-year relationship, I looked around at my circle and I had so many narcissistic people in my circle as friends that I didn't even realize, you know, until I got out of that relationship, kind of got the fog, you know, out of my head and started looking at things differently. Because, you know, I was like, when do they ever even ask me if I'm okay or call me or check on me? It's always them, them, them, them, them. I'm always serving everybody and pleasing everybody and doing for everybody. And there's no give and take in these relationships. And so I had to cut people, you know, people out of my life left and right because I was done. I wanted people in my life that actually truly did care about me.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Well, and that's that's what's hard too, is you you go into this relationship and you develop a family around you, a family of actual family and friends. And then when you leave the relationship, you're not just losing that one person. You are losing so many other people that were such huge parts of your life.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

Well, that's I think there's like layers of grief that you have to go through and allow yourself to go through and things will bubble up. Or then in the process, like Dina said, as you cut out of that relationship, the intimate partner, then you start realizing as you're going, like Dina said, the healing, then that's when you start cutting and grieving over that, and grieving over that. So yeah, there's definitely layers there.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Well, yeah, you lose a whole family, you know, you lose a whole family because you know, you have in-laws, they have in-laws, you know, they've all you've all been family, the holidays, you know, and then your kids obviously are part of a family, and now your kids have lost their sense of family. I mean, as a mom, it's devastating to think about your kids not having, you know, the traditional family anymore and possibly even blaming you or being angry at you, you know, for leaving or them getting custody, you know. It's like all the things go through your head and it it makes it such a difficult decision when you have children, especially.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

Well, and then the healing, and that part isn't easy either. And I never want to say that with the intention of telling people just stay where you are because the healing part sucks. And it does. You're gonna have parts of the healing that suck, and you're going to go, you're going to cry for a variety of reasons. You're going to doubt yourself. And there are so many things that make it difficult. But once you get to the other side, this is one thing. It's just such a beautiful view from over here, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 49:14

Isn't it? It is so true. And and I think of the grieving, I one of my therapists said, you're in a cocoon right now. And I think that's how we have to view the healing process. And when you're in a cocoon, you're not around a lot, a lot of people. You are kind of like getting to know yourself all over again. And you need to be reflective, you need to be willing to walk through the pain because that's part of the grieving process. Because some people just kind of put it under the rug and they think they've dealt with it, and then it comes up later on. But I think if we can really make the healing process a more personal, beautiful thing of it's okay to be a little isolated for a season to have that time of just, I don't want to say lick your wounds, because that's not really the case. It's really, but it is healing and it is reinventing. And then you get to the point, like you said, it's beautiful. It's like the butterfly coming out, their wings are out, and they're a whole different person. And then they start reinventing the areas and the flowers they want to go to.

SPEAKER_00 50:18

That's right. Okay, so is there anything else that you think that are important parts of either when you're in the relationship or just beginning the relationship and the throes of it, how to get out, how to heal. Is there anything that you think that we haven't touched on that you wanted to mention?

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Um, as far as how to get out and how to heal, I mean, the very first step for anybody out there that's feeling something might be off, something might be wrong, maybe it's not a narcissistic thing, maybe it's not actually toxic, but there's just something wrong. The first thing is really paying attention to that voice in you and finding out what it is. Do the research, you know, look at patterns, pick up books, pick up anything that can help you to start seeing things clearly. Listen to podcasts, YouTube channels, whatever. Just get your hands on something and really start looking at patterns and start looking at how you feel when you're with this person. Every day won't feel the same. Some days they're going to be really kind and loving and warm, but if they can rip that security right out from under you without a thought, that's also something to pay attention to. That's the first, the first step is the awareness. After that, once you're aware that there's something wrong, now it turns to the point of can this be fixed? Can this be remedied? You know, what is it and can it be resolved? And definitely please have somebody in your life that's a therapist or a really sharp life coach that can keep you accountable to what you're actually seeing and feeling because it's so confusing. There's so much fog. And at that point, then you can make a decision on whether this is a relationship that is going to stay the way it is, or there's actually hope for that person to get better and change.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

I think one of the things I like to talk about, and I love it when Dina says it or shares about it, but our name, our LLC is the Matadoras. And so you think of the Matadoras, she goes into the rink, ring with just her muletta and the wisdom and the knowledge that she has when she faces her bull. But who do we have on the outside around in that rink? It's you've got family, you've got support groups that could be there for you, you got therapists, you've got so many people that are there. But unfortunately, a lot of times when you're in the middle of that fight, in that moment, in that house, and you're facing that person, you feel so alone. So, yes, like Dina said, educate yourself, get all the knowledge you can. So when you're facing that bull, you know what you're facing. And remember one thing: you are not alone, you are not crazy, and you are deeply loved.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yeah, that's perfect. I do want to say one thing about when Dina, when you mentioned therapy, I think I love therapy. I think I think everyone should go to therapy, regardless if you're in a healthy relationship or not a healthy relationship. But if you are in this unhealthy relationship and you are looking for some clarification, I would highly suggest to not go to therapy with that abusive partner because they will take that opportunity to reinforce everything that they're doing and still make you look like the bad guy. And unless you have a fabulous, very well intuned therapist, they're not going to pick up on it. And they're going to actually end up validating the abuser.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

That is, I'm so glad you said that, Ingrid, because I tell you, Lizzie and I see that and hear people tell their stories about that constantly. They will bedazzle, they will, you know, gaslight and manipulate and put your therapist in a fog to where they really now aren't sure who's on the wrong side of the fence. And you're right. And then, of course, now you've got this voice that you are supposed to trust that's telling you this person's okay. That happened definitely in my relationship all the time. People that I looked up to and trusted that were respected authorities in my life, we would go for couples counseling. Then they would tell me that he was just, you know, a little boy that had a bad life and was just acting it out as an adult. And there was so much hope for him, and he wanted to be better, and I could help him, you know, as his wife and support him.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

And they're loving it. You just need a little bit more. Yes, yeah. That's exactly right. Yeah. What are you doing that you can help change him? Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Yep, exactly. So that's fantastic advice, Ingrid. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

Okay, so you mentioned two books. When do they come out? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 54:58

We're not sure yet. We're still at the crossroads of are we going to self-publish, which that means they would be out in a couple of months, or are we going to we have a publisher that is potentially interested in in publishing our books, but it's a hybrid publishing, so that costs quite a bit of money. And you know, we don't do this for money, so we don't have we don't have money rolling in that we can just go pay, you know, 10 grand. So, you know, it's gonna depend on which way that goes. But I expect in the next few months, you know, you'll be hearing about something. And we'll definitely have it. It'll be on Amazon, you know, it'll be ready to go. Both books will be on Amazon and ready to go. And y'all like pristine, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Okay, and you already mentioned your podcast and some links and stuff, but could you say that one more time if anybody wants to follow along with you guys?

SPEAKER_02 55:46

We are surviving toxic relationships with the Matadoras. But if you just type in surviving toxic relationships, you should find us because it's just a picture of us. We are our little logo. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Yeah. And there were, you know, YouTube, public Facebook, and our podcasts are on all the platforms.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

So we're pretty easy to find. Okay, perfect. Now I know you guys have already said really um important things, but is there anything else that a lasting word of wisdom or encouragement that you want to leave with listeners?

SPEAKER_02 56:19

I think one thing I would say, just any any healing or if you've been a victim of anything, there's a normal time of going through the the the as a victim, and then you go through the anger phase, but really find what you can do to thrive. Don't stay there, don't stay angry. It's you know that you've healed if you're not angry, and if you don't walk around like you're still the victim three years later. And I think that you'll find that if you find numbness about that, that's probably a good thing. It means you're on a good place.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Yeah, and I think I would just the last thing I would say is always trust yourself, always trust your gut. You may not know what it's telling you, you may not know what it means, you may not understand, and it's easy for someone to talk you out of it. But if that feeling in your body or in your nervous system, or even these thoughts that keep coming in your brain, if they keep recurring, pay attention to them. It would just be like a physical symptom, okay? If you kept having this pain in your abdomen and you could kind of, you know, put hot packs on it and rest and get it to go away, but then it kept recurring, you're going to finally realize that something's wrong. Please pay attention to that because that is most of the time your best and earliest sign that something is off. And you can save yourself a lot of really wasted and painful years by addressing that thing, that feeling that something's wrong, or you're feeling in pain, or you're feeling confused. Um anything you're feeling that isn't complete happiness and joy to be with this person, you've got to get that checked out.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Dina. Thank you so much, Lizzie, for coming on. Thank you for your podcast. I love that you guys have joined forces and are tackling this topic. It's so incredibly important for people to hear. And I'm so appreciative of your time.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Thank you, Ingrid. It was such a delight. We enjoyed ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 58:28

Thank you again, Dina and Lizzie, for joining me today. And thank you, Warriors, for listening. You can find the links Dina and Lizzie were referring to in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode for you. Until then, stay strong. And wherever you are in your journey, always remember you are not alone. To learn more, explore episode resources, browse a collections, or register as a guest, visit Beyondthatistics Podcast.com. If today's episode meant something to you, please share it with someone who may need it. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media. Beyond the Statistics is a.5 Panoy production. Music written and performed by Tim Crow.