Growing Up in a Family Cult: Religious Trauma & Coercive Control with Stella McCormick I Ep. 138

Why Cult Tactics Look Like Abuse

SPEAKER_02 0:27

Hi Warriors, welcome to Beyond the Statistics. I'm your host, Ingrid. I've been wanting to have a conversation about cults for quite some time because there are so many parallels between the tactics used by cult leaders and those used by abusers. Power, control, isolation, fear, and the gradual loss of autonomy. Today, my guest, Stella, shares what it was like to be born into a single family cult and raised within that environment. She tells her story in her book, Deliver Us from Mother: Faith, Fear, and the Family Cult That Broke Me. And today, she's bringing that story to Beyond the Statistics. Stella, welcome to the show. Hi, Stella. Thank you for joining me. Welcome to Beyond the Statistics. Hi, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I'm so glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

I've been trying to figure out how to get this conversation into my podcast for the longest time. And since I've brought into Beyond the Statistics, I think this is a definitely easy transition. Oh, I hope everybody's on the edge of their seat right now. But before we before we get into that, can you just share a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, so my name is Stella. I started sharing my story on TikTok. So I guess I'm a content creator now, which kind of sounds weird to say. I live in North Carolina with my husband and our eight chickens. I don't have kids yet, but they are kind of like my eight little daughters. I love them all. Yeah, I'm a sexual assault victim advocate for the army, and I also serve as a reservist in the Navy. Um that's kind of a little bit about me without going like full, full dive into my story yet.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Well, that's a lot. And I'm like you had me at chickens because I also have chickens. And and my my dad's side of the family is all military, most of them Navy, but a couple army as well. So yeah. All right. So now we're friends. Um you have a a very interesting story that some people may wonder where the relatability is, but I think the dynamics behind the control issues in these stories are what people are going to say, oh yeah, that makes sense now. So now that I've piqued interest, maybe, or confused people, and maybe they've turned this show off. But let's get into your story.

Stella’s Background And Life Today

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah. So basically I usually start with um, I was raised in a single family cult. And then usually people are like, what is that? And what is it? I had no idea either. So I was raised in the best way to describe it is like a fundamentalist evangelical Christian family, but like take that to the extreme. Um my parents were extremely, extremely uh controlling, religious, abusive. Um, but I didn't know any of this until I was 25. So I guess like fast forward all my story. When I

Breakdown Overseas And A Hard Truth

SPEAKER_00 3:28

was 25, I had a complete mental breakdown after having experienced a sexual assault while in the military and then going to court for that. He was found not guilty. I go on deployment like two weeks later, and I'm separated from you know my husband and all the people that I know, and I'm just like in the Middle East. I had a complete mental breakdown. Um, and I started going to therapy in the Middle East, um, thousands of miles away from home. So I'm like doing the therapy, which I thought was like I was raised that, you know, therapy is only for people who are like crazy and psychotic. You don't need therapy. If you need therapy, then there's something wrong with you. So I didn't want to go at first, but then I was like, all right, I'm clearly like not doing well. So I checked myself into uh mental health overseas and I started going to therapy. It started out as twice a week um for like the the let next six months that I was over there. And I thought I was going to therapy for the sexual assault, um, that I clearly had not dealt with, the verdict that I clearly had not been able to like analyze and and debrief from. Um and the therapist started asking me questions about my family and my my childhood, and I was kind of like, this is irrelevant, but maybe he's just kind of setting the tone or something, like trying to get a background or you know, whatever. And then he asked me, so when did you realize you were abused? And I was like, Well, I wasn't, but okay. And I wasn't abused, I don't really know what you're talking about. And he's like, Well, okay, when did you realize that your mom is a controlling narcissist? And I was like, narcissists, and I really had never heard the word before. I thought I knew what it meant, and he explained what it meant, and I was like, I mean, she was, you know, should I mean I I had strict parents growing up. I usually chalked it up to like, yeah, I grew up with strict parents. And he basically taught me, this therapist, that yes, I'm here because I cannot seem to work through this sexual assault that happened to me in adulthood. But the reason that I'm not able to work through this sexual assault is because I have so much unresolved trauma from my entire life that I never dealt with first. So how am I gonna deal with something new? And also, I was never given the tools to deal with trauma or something bad that comes my way. I was in survival mode my entire life. So I was never given those tools. So if somebody sexually assaults me in adulthood, I'm not gonna be able to address it. And I just sat there thinking, like, well, this guy clearly doesn't get it, because that's not none of that is accurate. This guy's like an idiot. So I left therapy like a mind blown, started texting my sister, my husband, and my sister basically lived the same life I did growing up. And so I was like, Do you think we were abused? And do you think like mom's a narcissist? And I'm like floating all this by my sister, and she's like, I don't think so. But then, like, you know, we hung up and she'd call me like two days later, and she's like, I've been thinking about that, and now I kind of think maybe he's on to something. And I'm like, wait, you're on my therapist's side, and she's like, Well, think about it. And then I started thinking about it. And my husband was like, he never, my husband saw through everything like immediately, like when he met me. He did not like my mom from the get-go. I mean, he was not fooled at all, and so, but he never ever forced a worldview on me, forced an opinion on me. He always let me see it in my own time. So he's sitting over there, like, yeah, it was pretty clear that your mom is crazy and you guys were abused, but I'm gonna let you figure it out on your own time. So he was there just listening. He's like, Wow, really? You don't say. So I ended up going back to therapy, and I'm like, all right, if you know so much, let's dive into this a little deeper. And I felt like I just started having like epiphany after epiphany after epiphany. Um, so when I got one of the biggest things um that I realized was that I was abused. And then with that, if I was abused, then my siblings were also being abused. And there were still young kids, there were still kids under the age of 18 in the home. Because I have I'm one of nine siblings. So the younger three were still under 18, they're still at home living with my parents. So I'm like, all right, well, if two plus two is four, like if I was abused, they were being abused, they're still living there, they're they're actively being abused. So then I started kind of talking to my mom, talking to my sister, collecting screenshots, collecting photos, just kind of collecting things because I'm still in overseas, they're back here, and I'm like trying to kind of glean information, basically. Um seeing if what I thought was actually going on was going on, because I always saw it as just, you know, godly discipline or accountability or just these are your punishments. I never saw it as abuse. So now that I have this whole new mindset on it, I'm seeing my entire life in a different reality. So I get home from deployment and I'd pretty much decided at that point I need to call child protective services on my own parents. But like, who does that? You can't do that. Like, you can't destroy your own family. Like, I can't do that. So I was talking to my sisters, I was talking to my husband, and my sisters agreed with me that child protective services should be called, but they did not agree with me that one of us should be the one to call because they were like, it can't be on us. Like, we can't be the ones to destroy our family. If somebody else happens to see this and calls, then it's out of our hands. But we can't have the dirt, like the the blood can't be on our hands because they were so scared. And I mean, I was scared too. Basically, spoiler alert, I did end up calling. I did

Calling CPS And Leaving No Contact

SPEAKER_00 9:30

call CPS. And the day that I called is usually that's the day that I say that I went no contact. That's the day that I got out of the cult. Now, I didn't know it was a cult yet. So in the next year, uh, we were navigating foster care court, family court, all of the um visits and and just all the stuff on the court process there. And I just I started having like a mental breakdown like every day. And I was having panic attacks and like panic attacks to the point where like my chest, like I couldn't breathe, and I was like almost passing out. I was suicidal daily, every single day. And I was like, something's gotta give here. Like, I you know, I I can't just live like this. And then I kind of decided, like, I don't need therapy, I don't need meds, I can do this by myself. I can just like I can at the time I was still trying to reconcile everything that I had grown up with with the religion side too. So I was like, well, clearly, because I was taught this, clearly I'm not praying enough. Like, I'm just not praying enough or something, and like that's not that's why I'm like having these mental episodes or something. And I kept thinking I can do it by myself. And then as soon as I realized I went on like that for about a year, and as soon as I realized that I was hurting other people outside myself, for example, my husband, I was like, okay, I need help then because I don't know, like it took me a year to notice I'm living like this, yes, but it's not just me that's suffering right now, like he's having to live with me and deal with me and like try to guess my moods and deal with somebody that's suicidal and depressed and anxious and panic attacks and all the things, and like I'm affecting his life as well. And so at that point, I think that was what clicked for me. Like, I need to get myself help for the people in my life that I'm hurting. So I sought out therapy, started doing therapy, and it did nothing. And I was like, this worked so well overseas. Like, how come this is not working now? It must be me. So then I didn't want to go on medication because again, another thing that my parents had taught me like, if you go on meds, that means like you're, you know, you're a serial killer type of bad. Like you obviously need help. So I didn't want to go on meds, but therapy just wasn't helping. So I saw a psychiatrist and she put me on one medication, and it made me 10 times

Therapy Stigma, Medication, Getting Stable

SPEAKER_00 12:00

worse. And every time I would go back to her, she would just up the dose and then and up the dose and up the dose. And then finally, I was like, I had been on this medication for like three months, and it was those three months were worse by far than the entire year before that. And those three months, I was actually trying to get help, and I was like, I don't understand why like it's not working. I don't think this medication works for me. And my psychiatrist told me, You're fighting against the medication in your brain because the medic kit the medicine works, but if it's not working, it's because you don't want it to work, you don't really want to get better. And so I left in tears, just like ghosted her, found a different doctor, they switched my meds, and it took about two weeks for like one to switch over and like completely be on the next. And then I remember my first like good day, and then I already had like two good days in a week, and then I had two good days in a row, and then I had a good week, and then I would have a good month, and there were still bad days, but it was like the the storm had lifted and the sun came out almost, and so then therapy started working once my and and basically I mean the medication is to balance the imbalances in your brain and the therapy, then I could focus on therapy. So once I was a little bit more stable, I started trying to figure out I was trying to reconcile everything with the religious aspect, and I was trying to still be a Christian at the time because that's that's all I knew. And so I was like, well, I have to still be a Christian, but like none of this makes sense because my parents are Christians and according to the law, they literally abuse children. Like, I'm not just saying that, the law said that. So, like, how can these people abuse children but also be Christians? Those two things can't both be true. So I was trying to figure out like what religion was I really raised in because it just wasn't reconciling with people that I met and their version of religion or other family members and their version of religion or Christianity. And so I was sort of looking up a bunch of things, and I literally stumbled across. I don't

The BITE Model And Naming The Cult

SPEAKER_00 14:10

know what I looked up to find it. I Googled so many things in that in that year, but I found Stephen Hassan's bite model, which is B-IT-E and its behavioral information, uh, thought, and emotional control. And in each of those four pillars, he listed out like all of these ways that you can control a person or be controlled by a person, like all the different types of control that fall under information, like you know, withholding information, only giving you the information that you need to have, um, financial control, isolation, all the different things and and where they fall. And I was going on this list and I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then I realized, hold on, this bite model, this is a model for a cult. And I was like, wait a second, I just clicked off 95% of these things as yeses, but this is a model for how to tell if something's a cult. I didn't think I was in a cult, so then I literally googled something like, can a cult just be one family or can one family be a cult? And uh then popped up the term single family cult. And then I went, I mean, on a I went on rabbit holes after that. And apparently a single family cult is very much a thing. Basically, it is a all of the same hallmarks, coercive control, the isolation, um, you know, basic basically everything boils down to the different types of control, all the different hallmarks of what you would think of as a cult, but it's just on one singular family level. It can be, it can be a big organization, it can be 15 polygamous families living on a compound, it can be one congregation of a church, it can be one family, it can also just be one couple. So you see a lot of these same types of control in this bite model with like a domestic violence type of couple, where you have the controlling person and you have the um controlled person, the victim, essentially, and all of the same types of control can also be seen in a domestic violence relationship. So, can just two people be a cult? Technically, yes. So that's kind of a nutshell of like how I figured that out, and I just went on rabbit holes after that.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

So rightfully so. I would have been right along with you.

Love Bombing, Isolation, And Modern “Cults”

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Well, and the reason I've been wanting to have this conversation with someone is because I watched some. And I just said this in that live too. I promise I do more than just watch documentaries over and over again. And I promise I watch like I have every intention of always sitting down and watching a nice rom-com or something, something fun. But no serial killer. Yeah, no, serial killers, cult, you know, world's worst ex, all of that. That's all me. So I was watching one of the documentaries, and it was about a cult. And I kept thinking, at first I was like, I would never be in a cult. But then as I watched it, I was like, ooh, okay, that's the same tactics that abusers have. And I mean, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yeah, right. The love bombing and then all of the affection up front, using, you know, we want you because you're so good at this, and yeah, playing to your strengths and then gaslighting, and it's all the same things.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

It's all the same, the isolation, and then so this conversation is happening right at the hype of the whole pastor's uh wife.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

And that I've said it before, I wanted to crawl out of my skin watching that because there were a lot of similarities with my abuser and what was what was said in that. And like that would be a cult, right? Yeah, because of the dynamics.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Personally, I would argue that the pastor and and Micah Miller were their own cult, but also I would argue that his church, he was the cult leader of his church because so many people supported him, so many people were so brainwashed by what he was saying. And honestly, I think that that church was its own cult. And unfortunately, Micah Miller was a a product of it, basically. Yeah, and I think I would have to agree with you because even after the the building itself got sold or whatever happened to it, and he still was able to continue services, he's got like 20 people that will still follow him, and yeah, that's insane to me. But I at the same time, it's not like I totally I I mean I see I see why he has gotten into people's you know minds, he's he's used all of those tactics, and to those, you know, 20 loyal followers, everything he says is true, and he was the victim of all of this, and you know, the list goes on, but yeah, I I thought once I realized that a cult is not just you know the the big name cults that we know of that we hear in the news named a cult or you know the polygamous cults and stuff. Once I realized it could be something else, and really that simple definition of it is the control, I was like, uh okay, there's a lot of things that are culty then. And then I, you know, I got on a rabbit trail of all the different cult podcasts. And um I know Sarah Edmondson does one, she her podcast is called A Little Bit Culty, and they talk about a lot of groups that are a little bit culty, MLMs. You don't really think about MLMs being a cult, but they have been nicknamed commercial cults because it's not usually a religion or or something like that. But I mean, if you think about it, it's like it's like a pyramids game. You have one person at the top, and then you recruit, and you basically to recruit, you love bomb. You know, in the beginning, when you join an MLM, in the beginning, it's so butterflies and roses, and it's everything good, and it's I'm gonna make so much money. And like they love me, they want my skills. I am special, I am unique. And then you get into the throes of it and you're like, I'm not making money, I'm not doing this. Well, you haven't applied yourself enough, you're not using the the skills. You need to go take this class that's $500, you need to go do this, and it's it they suck you in, and then they keep you in because your investment is so great now. You've spent so much time, money, and energy on this group, you you can't justify leaving because oh well, eventually I'll get my I'll get my money's worth out of this, and so you just say. So, in a lot of ways, MLMs are cults. Um, you know, yoga groups, or there's another another documentary on Netflix. I think I think it's called 7M is the group, but the documentary is called Dancing with the Devil or something about dancing, and it's like a dance cult that was like on social media.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

Um that's the one I watched that I was like, oh, I could have I could have been in that.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Yeah, I could have, I could have been sucked in. And I think that's another misconception too. I feel like I'm going all over the place, but that's like another misconception too, is that I think a lot of people assume that you would have, oh, you know, I would never join a cult because you would have to be so weak-minded. You'd have to be a weak person to join a cult. Well, you could say the same thing about domestic violence relationships. Oh, I would never be in one of those because you would have to be so weak-minded, you know, to let somebody walk all over you. I would never do that. I'm sure that every woman has all like all of them have probably thought that couldn't be me. And then you get into it because you don't see, I can't remember if you said this when we were talking earlier or not, or somebody else, but it's like the frog in the boiling water. Like you put a frog in a uh pot of cold water and they're fine. And then you turn the heat on. And they don't realize that over time the water's getting warmer until it's literally boiling them alive. You don't really realize you you get into a group and it's helpful, it's nice, they need you, they love you, or a relationship, or a family, or whatever it is. You don't really realize how the dynamics change over time until you're in the thick of it, and then you're like Like, how did I get here?

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Right. And then you're so isolated or you're embarrassed. There's a definite level of shame of like, oh my God, I can't believe I got here.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Like, was I so stupid that I didn't see this? Like, I had a lot of that, and I was born and raised into this family. But at 25, I was like, and to this day, I'm 29 now, so this was four years ago that I left. But to this day, I still think I'm like, how did I not see it? Like, am I so dumb that I like was so blind to all of this? But then I have to give myself grace. I have to, I have to think about the fact that like I was born into that. I didn't have anything else to compare it to. So for me, it was that was like the situation. But people that joined cults in their adulthood or their early 20s, colleges are like breeding grounds for cult recruitment because they're looking to belong, they're looking for a purpose, they're young, they're malleable. So a lot of like 20-somethings end up joining groups, groups that are kind of culty, um, because they think they're helping, they think they're doing something, they think they're, you know, furthering their education, or, you know, Nexium is a really famous cult as well. And it was a wellness group. It was like, let's, or I don't think it was a wellness group, it was like a self-improvement, like a personal growth kind of thing. Um, they did a lot of therapy and like group, group thinking, group stuff. And it was very much like we're going to help you become a better person. You just have to pay $5,000 for this initial class, you know. And then like you're so many dollars in, and and now you're a leader, and now you're teaching the classes, and you don't really realize how you got there. So it's it's actually, I know people think that it's like the weak-minded people, it's actually really strong people, really intelligent people that end up getting sucked in, so to speak, to a cult because they have skills or strengths that that cult needs. And so the cult recruiters or leader will be like, you know, love bombing, like, you're so good at this skill, and and we need this in our group. You're so good at it, and like nobody can do it like you. And then you feel needed, you feel wanted, you feel accepted, you feel like you belong. Those are all human, like basic, you know, human needs. And so you feel comfortable with joining this group, like they need me. And then over time, you don't really realize that the water starts boiling.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

That's exactly right. And that's exactly how the domestic abuse relationships start, because you have you possess something they can't have without having you. So they'll stop at nothing to get you. And if you flat out refuse, they you know, maybe like, okay, fine, I'll just move on to somebody else or whatever. But if you have what they want, they're going to make sure they get it.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah. I think vulnerability is another trait that they look for too. Like, you know, a lot of single moms, you know, you already have some kids, but you're a single mom, you could use the extra help, you could use the extra income. So you are in those vulnerable positions. So even if you're a very strong, independent, intelligent woman, being a single mom boss, you're still vulnerable in certain ways, and they will prey on that.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Who Got Out And Who Stayed

SPEAKER_02 25:44

I have a few questions. Did so when you left, did any of your siblings leave too? I know that there was CPS involved with the younger ones, but yeah, what happened with everybody?

SPEAKER_00 25:54

There's nine of us. I'm number two. So the day that I left, the day that I called CPS, um, I kind of say that, well, a couple girls left at the same time as me. Um, my older sister, she unofficially left a few months before. She had just had a baby. Um, and her daughter was a couple months old in uh like the few months before I called. And it was one of those for her, it was her daughter that I and I think a lot of people, I've heard a lot of domestic violence stories that are similar where you know you're you're not willing to save yourself for your own sake, but then once a child comes into the picture, you're willing to do something for them. So I think that was kind of it wasn't a domestic violence situation per se, but my sister knew that my mom was toxic. She didn't like the way that she was treating her while she's pregnant and just you know whatnot, and our whole life basically. But then once she had her daughter and she saw the way that my mom was treating her daughter, she was like, I I wasn't strong enough to leave for me, but I'm gonna leave now because you're not gonna do this to my kid. And so I think for her it was her kid. Um, but she was still so scared to like officially say I have cut all ties with my parents because it's a big decision. So she was like, I kind of like stopped talking to mom like a few months prior. And I was like, okay, well, I kind of am calling CPS. So you can do what you want. And I think for her, it was like, oh, sweet, clean break. Um, you're leaving, I'm gonna leave too. So for her, that was just it kind of just she'd already kind of left mentally, but it just made it permanent for her. My younger biological sister, she was really confused for a long time afterwards. Um, and she was going back and forth of like, this is my mom, though. Like, you know, I love her, don't I? Don't I? And then she was like trying to think, like, do I though? Like, did she ever love me? And so she went through everything that I had six months of deployment to think about. She was having to think about it like as CPS is taking the kids. So she, I kind of like I kind of just threw her into that. But um I think she had to see. She's not the type of girl that I could have explained things to, like my older sister and had her seen it. I think she had to see oh, CPS and the cops are taking the kids, which means there's grounds, which means you're not lying. Which means I need to think about this. Like she she went through a roller coaster of emotions and she did end up going non-contact with my parents as well. Um, she was kind of like one foot in, one foot out at that time because my parents hated her husband or her boyfriend. Um, always had. And so she didn't really love that, but they still needed her for free babysitting. So she was like, you know, I can't cut ties because I they she still needs me. And so she's basically just being exploited for free labor while her husband's not allowed to come to the house because they don't like him. So it was just she was kind of like one foot in up and one foot out. And then again, like when I called CPS, and once she was able to process a lot of things, she was like, I think I'm done. Um my younger, uh one of my younger adopted sisters, she was adopted. So my family got her when she was 14 and we adopted her at 15. And she came in to foster care when she was like three. So she had been tossed around foster care her entire life. Um, she had a lot of chronic health issues, and so she had a lot of trauma from those things and her surgeries and whatnot. And as soon as she walked into our house, it was very clear my mom hated her. Um, she's Mexican, and my mom really didn't like that, you know, we got a not in white kid. And so, but she wanted to add to the quiverful, she wanted to add to our numbers, so she just always wanted more and more kids. Um, but it was extremely extremely clear that my mom hated this girl from the beginning. But they always say that she was given a choice whether she wanted to be adopted, but she really wasn't given a choice, and I'm not sure what that was. Um, she was basically told, we're done tossing you around the foster care system. This is your final family. You will be adopted by them. This is where you're gonna be till you're 18. And then when she was 18, 18 or 19, I can't exactly remember, she ended up getting pregnant. She wasn't quite sure who the dad was because there was a couple people. Um, she was again, she had so much trauma. I honestly think that she hadn't quite dealt with a lot of stuff from her childhood as well, like before she even came to us. So she ends up getting pregnant, and my mom, of course, like all but shuns her because she had it is like pregnant out of wedlock. Um, doesn't even know who the father is. You know, she's basically a slut and a prostitute and a harlot. So uh they're kind of at odds. Once she goes to give labor, or she goes into labor ready to give birth, she didn't really have anybody, like friends or or anybody. And so my mom ended up being in the room when she gave birth, which she hates to this day. She's like, I wish that she wasn't there, but there wasn't anyone else. Um, and my mom, like, she was just kind of just like an asshole the entire time, basically. Like, sh whenever she was in pain, she was like, Oh, stop it. I did this five times or whatever. Um, like in the room with her when she's giving birth. And I'm like, that's probably the worst person to have in her room when you're giving birth. I can't even imagine. But she didn't want to hold her kid. My mom didn't want to hold the kid. And my mom said that since this girl is not, she's legally adopted. So she on paper, and like my parents are on her birth certificate. She is legally my sister. But my mom said that she's not counting this child as the first her first grandchild. Um, he's illegitimate for one, and also she he's not the blood, her grandchild. So she's not counting him. And he was the first grandchild. Um, my sister didn't have her baby till like a year or two later. So he was the first grandchild, but she said, I'm not counting him. Like in the hospital, right after he's born, she said this. And so I was like, well, that was probably a horrible experience. Um, so needless to say, that sister has had nothing to do with my mom pretty much ever since then. Um, so she technically was like the first one to leave, but she still felt like she had to keep connecting, um, keep inviting, you know, our us to her parents to birthday parties and keep coming to Christmas. And like she felt like she still had to be part of the family. And so again, when I called CPS, it was kind of just that clean cut um for her mentally. So she's like, oh, sweet. So I don't have to make up excuses anymore. I just don't have to go. And I was like, you didn't have to do that anyway, but yes. Um, so the four of us permanently left. And then the three kids that came into foster care, uh, one of them was 14 at the time. She turned 18 this year. She was kept in foster care permanently and and aged out. Um, she never was going to go back to my parents. But the younger two kids, one of which is one of her half-sisters, so these three kids were adopted from foster care. One of the youngest two kids was the older one's half-sister, and then the other youngest one that we had. The judge gave both of the youngest two back to my parents after about a year of being in foster care. And the reason that he gave was they were not as abused as the older one. They were adjudicated abused, but they were not as abused as the older one. And technically, on paper, my parents did all of their tasks. They took an online parenting class, they cleaned their house, they put it all in storage so their house was clean. Their house could rival a house on the horses. It was insane. It's always been like that my entire life. Um, so they had to take an online parenting class uh to clean their house and they had to like go to group therapy, which I don't even think they ever did. So they took their little class and they cleaned their little house and they were able to get the kids back because they weren't as abused. So to this day, my parents still have my youngest two siblings. They're 12 and 13 now. So I think they were eight and nine with when this happened. Um, yeah, so they're still living at home. But the older one, she has she wants nothing to do with my parents. Now that she's over 18, she has actually reconnected with her biological mom, um, who she hasn't seen since she was five when she came to us in foster care. So she's actually living with her bio mom right now, and it's such a good situation. Um, I mean, obviously, her bio mom was devastated when she found out like my kids got adopted into what was supposed to be their forever, you know, wonderful Christian family. And then, you know, 12 years later, she finds out that they were abused this whole time, and one of them is currently being abused, basically. So there was a lot of she called me though, and she called, she talked to me on the phone for like an hour. There was we cried, we laughed, we reminisced of all the things that could have been, but she and uh the older girl are reunited and they're living together now, so it's actually been a really good situation. So total, there are five girls out of the cult. Two of the youngest kids are living with my parents still, and then my two biological brothers are 26 and 24, and they took my parents' side in everything. So they think that I am the devil. They think they believe my parents in everything. So they believe that I just am being vindictive and I'm making false allegations, and I just wanted to just attack the family for no reason. Um, my parents have said that it's because my husband has brainwashed me, because my husband's not a Christian. Um, so he's brainwashed me and planted all of these ideas of false abuse in my head, and then I ran with them and made an irreversible decision to call CPS. So my brothers believe all that. So they're still in the cold. I don't think they're living at home. Last I knew they weren't living at home. Honestly, they're in their mid-20s and I haven't seen them in four years. They could be married with kids by now. I don't, I have no idea, but they have me locked. So four still in, unfortunately. Um, but five of us did get out.

SPEAKER_02 36:48

Do you know if your brothers are in contact with any of your sisters that got out?

SPEAKER_00 36:52

They're they're not. They're not. Yeah, they they don't want anything to do with any of us. Um they yeah, none of us.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Wow.

When A Parent Enables Abuse

SPEAKER_00 37:01

It's very like black and white divided.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Did your so your mom is kind of the head of the the cult? Was your dad just as bad, or did you?

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Oh my dad. Um, I get this question a lot, which because it's usually it's odd that my mom was in charge because Christianity, religion, it's usually very patriarchal. And it was on the outside. Um like when we were in public, my mom made it look like my dad was in charge, like he was the leader, you know, all that. But as soon as we got home, like everybody knew, including my dad, like mom is the end all be all, like you don't question her. Um, her authority is the ultimate authority. She was the narcissist. So what I think happened, because when I was really, really little, like five and under, I do remember like all the good parts of my dad. My dad was a completely different person back then. Um he would do like fun little dates with us and stuff when my mom didn't know and he had to like use his allowance to buy us little hot chocolates at the coffee shop or something like that. Um, mind you, he worked. She was a stay-at-home mom. He worked, but she had control of all the finances. Yeah. So yeah. So he, from all accounts, like of his family that I've reconnected with, he was just a normal guy. He was really sweet, he was really funny. He just was like your average guy, really, really fun, just older brother, you know, really cool. And then he met my mom. And they got married and started having kids. And my dad's family says that he changed. He definitely changed, like when he met her, because he wasn't it, it was like he wasn't allowed to laugh at their jokes anymore, he wasn't allowed to call them on their birthdays anymore. Like, it was like my mom had to give him permission for everything, and so they kind of thought that was weird. Um, but again, like they were in a different state, they didn't see him all the time, so they were like, Well, maybe it's just like maybe we saw them on a bad day or something.

SPEAKER_01 39:12

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

And then they started having kids, and my dad's family started seeing more and more things that they just didn't like, but again, they saw us so rarely, so they really couldn't, they didn't really have any proof, they just had suspicions and they really didn't know what their suspicions were. But in my perspective, my dad used to be his own person. He still tried a little bit when we were really young. Um, I think he still tried to be like a fun dad and whatnot. And I think he really did love us, at least back then. But so in the beginning, I get this question a lot. Do I think my dad was a victim as well of my mom? And yes, I do in the beginning. But eventually, I think the problem is eventually he kind of just gave up and gave in and took the path of least resistance and just kind of joined forces with her. Because fast forward to today, they're two peas in a pot. They are both just as evil as each other, both individually. They are they are horrible people. But my dad didn't used to be like that. So I looking back, I can kind of see the progression over time. He initially, like, you know, would buy us little hot chocolates or do fun things with us, and then those things kind of stopped. But then he would still kind of like, you know, if my mom was, you know, screaming at one of us or saying that we did something, but my dad knew that we hadn't done it, he kind of sometimes would like try to defend us a little bit, but he would always get his head chopped off for tr defending us or going against my mom, or you know, she'd be like, Oh, so you're gonna take the kid's side instead of your wife's side, and like, you know, he would get in trouble basically for that. And so I think over time he just gave up and he just joined forces with her, and it started out with him just following her orders and like doing her bidding basically, but then it it's like the the student has joined the master, basically, like they're they're both equally evil to me now. Um, and the other thing that I find it really hard to reconcile with is that if my dad was so good when I was young and he did really love us, then why didn't he do anything? Like, why didn't he step up for us? Why didn't he leave her? Why didn't he take us and run? Why didn't he get a divorce? Why, you know, why didn't he just stand up for himself, for us? So, yes, I do uh he was a victim of hers initially as well. But I also acknowledge that he was the adult in the situation and we were the kids, and he never stood up for us, he didn't actually get us out of there. He didn't he didn't stand up and recognize you are hurting me, you're hurting my kids, we need to separate from you. He never did that, he just joined her and started abusing us as well. So I think that like it's it's I think both things can be true, and it's it's not black and white, which is I'm very logical thinker, so I want things to be like this side or this side, and it's just not that way. Like people ask, like, do you love or hate your dad? I don't I love who he used to be. I love like the dad from 2003 on like and and before that, but this man, I don't know who this man is. I I don't refer to this man as my dad. I don't know who this this is because that's not a father in general, that's not a dad. Um, that's an evil man. And then the other thing is I I think that I'm more angry. I'm not really angry at my dad, per se. I'm angry or I'm not really angry at like what he did to us. I'm more so angry at like what he didn't do. Because like, why didn't you step up? Like people in much worse positions than you have stepped up to a toxic spouse to save their kids. People like single moms who don't work have stepped up and saved their kids. He was the one that was working, he had the job, he could have left her and taken us with her. So, like, you know, in that situation, I don't want to necessarily say that it was a domestic violence situation between him and my mom because there was never any physical abuse, but I mean, we all know physical is not the only type of abuse, so I think you know he was being mentally controlled, manipulated, emotional abused, and all of that. So um, depending on what your definition is of DV, I mean, it could have fallen in there. So the battered woman in this situation, I guess, would have been my dad. And I understand that. I do understand that you know he was the victim in that situation, but he joined forces with her, just became, you know, just as bad as she is. He didn't decide to help himself or help us. So I have a hard time seeing him as a victim, but I do recognize that initially he starked. Does a victim, if that makes sense?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

It does. That's definitely a hard thing to wrap your head around as especially as the kid. You know, like it I can I can see that conflict of of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Yeah.

Tracing Family Patterns Without Easy Answers

SPEAKER_02 44:43

But it does make sense. Does did your mom have any siblings, or did you ever keep in touch with her family? What like are they the same way?

SPEAKER_00 44:53

No, that's the thing. She has two younger brothers, and I always loved them growing up. So we were never allowed to communicate or see my dad's side of the family because my mom hated them. Um, but my but my mom's side of the family we were allowed to see. So I grew up knowing my uncles and I loved them. I mean, they were they're very different from each other, very different from her. Um, and I always like I do remember thinking, like, I wonder how they can be so fun and so nice. And mom turned out like this. Like, I was like, how can that be? Because they are like, they're just like my recollection of them is just they're just really genuine people. They're really great guys. Um, and I loved them growing up. I always, my older sister and I, whenever we thought about running away when things got really bad at home, we always thought to run to my nearest uncle's house, which we were in Idaho and he was in California. So it wasn't really an easy, but the other one was like on the East Cups. So I mean, like he was he was closer, but we were like, someday we'll get to, you know, somehow we'll get to his house and and everything will be okay. Um she was raised like I from all accounts, like just pretty average life, kind of more on the wealthy side, I'd say like upper middle class. They they went to they lived in kind of a posh neighborhood, a really nice house. Um, my grandpa was really had a really good job, I guess. Um she kind of got anything that she wanted, I think. She was the only girl, she was the oldest, so it was her and then two brothers. So I don't think she ever had like she never wanted for anything, she never, you know, had anything bad happen in her life, to my knowledge. Um, and I feel like I've heard all the childhood stories growing up. So I mean, I don't I don't really, I can't think of anything. I mean, she never even got in a car accident, like nothing bad happened in her life. So, uh, because a lot of people think but like an abuser likely was also abused, and that's why they abused. That makes sense, you know. But I my mom was not abused, to my knowledge. So, like, I I grew up with my mom's uh parents, so the maternal grandparents grew up with them. I never liked my grandmother because she never really liked me, and I think that that was because she's very artistic, she's very into flowers, plants, gardens, painting, you know, all the artsy things. And I just wasn't that kid. I was very much a tomboy. I was like, I don't want to paint flowers today, but my sisters did, and my sisters were much more docile and like they would sit and paint little flowers with my grandma and stuff, and I hated it, I would get so bored. So I don't think she really ever liked me. She always got mad at me. I was always in trouble with her as a kid, but she loved my my sisters. So I didn't really have a close relationship with my grandma, but in general, we all kind of did, like, because we grew up with them. We always lived, they followed us everywhere. Wherever we moved, they would move, like down the street. Even when we moved from Idaho to North Carolina, they moved out here. So they didn't follow my uncles anywhere, but they would follow my mom for some reason. My grandma and my grandpa's relationship is similar to my mom and my dad, in that my grandpa doesn't really have a say. She wears the pants in the family, but not to the extent that my parents do. Um, my grandpa does still have a say in like big financial decisions and like, you know, some of the bigger things, whereas my dad has no say in anything. Um, but in like in a general sense, my grandma definitely does with pants. So I think that's similar. So she may be a little bit narcissistic. If I, you know, if she went to a psychiatrist, I guess maybe she'd be diagnosed a little bit. But my mom like is a wild card. I don't know where that came from. I don't know because her brothers aren't like that, her parents really aren't like that. Her parent, her her mom, whenever we were being abused or or being punished, being disciplined, I should say, is her word for it. Uh, or if we had to go stay at my grandma's house for any reason and my mom would instruct her on how to punish us, my grandma would do it. My grandma would just stand there and watch, and she'd be like, Well, should have listened to your mom, you know, when we're baby getting like strangled on the front porch or something. Like my grandma was like, I think in her eyes, my mom could do no wrong. And so she just like backed her up, no matter what she did. Um but if my grandpa had an opinion on it, he was shut down. So it it was it was kind of like a similar situation, but not as bad, I guess. But I still don't really have a a concrete, like, oh, this happened in her childhood, that's why she is the way she is. Like, I I don't recall her ever being in a car accident or have like being assaulted in any way. Like, I don't remember any bad thing happening in her life that could explain why she is the way that she is, unless she was just a spoiled first daughter and got her way and just took it too far. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

I can't I really can't explain why she is the way she is, which would make it even harder for anybody like your dad, harder to even see what kind of person she is if you're looking at the rest of the family. Yeah, they're so normal. Normal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Yeah, it's yeah,

Faith Used As A Weapon

SPEAKER_00 50:17

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

That's all I you mentioned religion a little bit. Was there a model that they followed in particular or a certain belief structure?

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Yeah, sort of. Um, and they kind of cherry-picked what they wanted, uh, depending on the season of our lives and what worked best for them at the time. Uh they said that we were non-denominational Christian. So that's why I say like evangelical fundamentalist Christian is like the closest thing that I could say that it was. That's like the religion, basically, that I grew up with. Uh, if you know the Duggars, they were in the IBLP cult with Bill Gothard. We were not in that cult, but my mom was obsessed with Michelle Duggar, and she did anything Michelle Duggar did. So when Michelle said she paired like an older kid with a younger kid and she had like a buddy system, we start doing the buddy system. So we had, I was paired with one of my younger brothers my entire life. So we had a buddy system. Um she talked just like Michelle Duggar in public, like that sweet, uh, like the sweet, syrupy, like patronizing voice. That's what my mom sounded like, unless she was at home talking to us. She never talked to us like that. She was, you know, used her regular bitchy voice with us. But in public, she was just the sweet, you know, Michelle Duggar voice. Um, and then they were not in IBLP either, but Michael and W. Pearl wrote a book called To Train Up a Child and the Duggar's cult, the IBLP cult, endorsed that book and basically taught from it. And my parents also used that book religiously. And basically, that book, if you've ever heard of blanket training, that comes from that book, which is where, like starting at three months old, you put a baby on a blanket on the floor and put a toy just out of reach. And then when the baby starts to, you know, move, roll, crawl, anything, reach for the toy that's right from their face, um, but just out of reach. If any part of them comes off the blanket, you hit them with a stick or a ruler starting at three months old.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

Um, what is the purpose of that? Obedience. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah. All of it is just to teach obedience because you will obey no matter what. No matter what. Keep sweet, pray, and obey, I think, is literally a uh a documentary on Netflix or something, and that's literally what it was. You keep sweet and pray. Yes, you're right. Yeah. So they literally and they followed everything. There's a chart in there basically that says, based on your child's age, how big the stick should be that you will hit them with. Um, it says in there, well, I can't remember if it's in there or James Dobson said it. James Dobson with Focus on the Family was another one that they followed religiously. And I think that a lot of evangelical Christian families in like the 80s to the early 2000s followed James Dobson and Focus on the Family. Um, and most of us are in no contact with our parents now, but he was very pro-corporal punishment. And it was either him or from that book, one of the two said that the spankings need to come from the father, not the mother, because the mother is nurturing, the father is the disciplinarian. And then also, you were not supposed to spank with your bare hand because the hand is loving. You hug with this hand, so you use an object. So that's why I would use like a wooden spoon or a a switch of some sort, like a stick or something like that. Um, so that it was like a godly thing. Yeah, there was a lot in that book. Uh, they said that you needed to break your child's will um in order to basically get through to them. Uh control them? Yeah, basically. And then with James Dobson as well, I mean, he taught most of the same things. Um, they followed the instruction that you were supposed to uh inflict the maximum amount of pain uh to get your point across as well, um, which is why we did naked spankings, because if you paint, if you spank over the pants, well, that's not the maximum amount of pain. They have padding. If you spank over the underwear, that's still not the maximum amount of pain. So you have to inflict the maximum amount of pain to control the child, to break their will. Uh and then they likened it, they both, I think, the book Michael and W. Pearl and James Stops, and I'm pretty sure both of them, I'd have to go back and look, but they likened it to uh how you train how you break a horse. They likened disciplining a child is the same as breaking a horse, or like training an animal, like we are animals. So there was a lot of um in my personal opinion, I describe the book as a guide on how to abuse your children in the Lord's name, basically. So because that's really what it was. It was supposed to be how to train up your child, to train up a child in Christ with godly discipline, biblical discipline. Uh, but what it actually was is a is literally a Bible and a how-to instruction guide on how to abuse your kids, but say that it's godly. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

See, that's well, and I think that's why people can get stuck too, especially if they're very religious. I again, uh Micah and JP, he knew how religious she was and he used that.

SPEAKER_00 55:55

Yeah. And I mean, he basically he did the kind of the same thing. Like the Bible says that a woman has to satisfy her husband. So if you're not, you're disobeying God. So like it, yeah, it makes it literally sound like if you're not disciplining your children like this, you as the parent are just disobeying God. It's like like the same premise, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 56:20

That's so gross.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Yeah. It really is.

Meeting Her Husband And Seeing The Truth

SPEAKER_02 56:24

So, how uh did your parents ever have any problems with you marrying your husband? Did they give you a hard time beforehand?

SPEAKER_00 56:31

Uh yes, a hundred percent. They're he's we do not have their blessing, I should say. So my older sister uh got married first, and they didn't really approve of her husband either. Uh, he was raised Catholic, which is not real Christian, according to my parents. That is a false Christian. How? Because it's not what they believed. Catholics are not real Christians, Mormons are not real quick Christians, Jehovah's Witness, any of them, any Methodist, Lutheran, everybody else is not the correct kind of Christian. Only our family was. Only we were doing it correctly. So they kind of turned that though. They didn't like him uh because he was raised Catholic, but they kind of turned that to be like, well, uh, he was raised with a false uh Christianity, a false religion, uh, but we can witness to him and we can we can bring him into our religion if he marries into the family. So they kind of twisted it as like, oh, you know what, this is a mission field, like this is a project. And so they weren't really okay with that. Uh they also really hated my sister's wedding. She got married in a black dress because she's got like she wanted, she wanted to.

SPEAKER_02 57:54

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

My mom was livid. Um, and I've I essentially like threatened her ahead of time. I was like, my sister was like, I'm getting married in a black dress, do not tell mom. And I was like, Okay, I will not. Immediately I told my mom, and I was like, she's getting married in a black dress, and if you say one word, like I will kick you out of the way. Like, I was so adamant. So I disobeyed my sister. I told her I did this later, but she was so shocked, she was like, Mom didn't say anything about the black dress. She said I looked beautiful. Like, I guess she's cool with it now. And I was like, Yeah, it's so weird. And then after the wedding, like years later, I was like, Oh yeah, when you said don't tell mom about your black dress, I immediately told her because I was like, You if you say one word, you're gone. Like I was like, You are not gonna ruin her day.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

That's what sisters do.

SPEAKER_00 58:44

I mean, yeah, we it was so funny because like we would throw each other into the bus just to save our own, you know, backs sometimes, but then on other times we'd have each other's backs, like to the death. And it's it was just so interesting. I don't know if that that dichotomy is kind of weird to this day, um looking back. But her other question that you asked. I didn't know. Oh, our husband, my husband. Oh, yeah, that's right. Um, yeah. So my younger sister started dating this guy. He was also the wrong kind of Christian and whatever. I don't know. They didn't like him because he dyed his hair, and he got my sister to dye her hair, and so now they're just going down, you know, a sinful path and going off the deep end and all this. They told her to break up with him. She said, I will not, and so they kicked her out. And so they also kicked out my older sister. So she was the second kid to get kicked out. Um, and then I was the third one to, well, then my younger sister got pregnant, and she is married now to someone that's not the baby's daddy. Um, and so my parents are not okay with that either. And then I brought my husband to meet them because this is about like the summer before I deployed, I brought them to meet him, or I brought him to meet them. And I thought they were on their best behavior when he came to meet them. I was just like, oh my gosh, my mom is being so sweet. Like, they're on their best behavior. And then when we were leaving, my husband, my boyfriend at the time, my husband was like, Are they always that mean to you? And I was like, They were on their best behavior. What are you talking about? Like, they were so sweet. And he's like, No, no, no. Do they always treat your siblings like that? And I was like, like, really nice? Yeah. And he's like, that was not nice. And he's like, Does your mom always talk to your dad like that? And I was like, they were putting on a shelf for you, they were on their best behavior. And he's like, if that's their best behavior, I don't want to see them on a normal day because that was absolutely atrocious. He was mad at how they treated me, and I thought they were being so nice. Like, this is not my normal one. What did he notice? I don't even know. Like, we've talked about it to this day, and he's just like, he can read people really well. He's one of those people that he's very quiet. He does not really speak in public circles, but he's always paying attention, he's always observing, he's always listening. Um, and so he like nothing gets by him, but he just he's not gonna like join the conversation, but he's listening. And I I don't know if maybe that gives him like hypersenses or something, but he was just like immediately, I just I didn't like the way she was speaking to you. I didn't like the way she was speaking to your dad. I didn't like the looks that she was giving your dad. Like, you know, you know how people say, like, you're in public at a restaurant and the kids are acting up, and like the mom will give you like the mom look or something. Yeah, she would give looks like that to my dad. Like, you better act right, you know, we're gonna talk about this after, type of thing. Like, my dad was in trouble. Um, while we were there, they were like, I don't know why they did this. My mom did not want me to bring my boyfriend, my husband, uh, to the house. She didn't want him to know where they lived because she's weird like that. I told him where they live. Um and so they took their RV and they went like 20 minutes from their house and stayed the night at an RV park. And we met them there. And the older of the youngest three kids, the one that was kind of abused the most, um, that just aged out of foster care, they my mom kicked her out of the RV and she like missed all the steps. And so she fell like four feet and hit her head on the picnic table, like while we were there. And to me, I did not think anything of that. That was completely normal to me. Saying it out loud now makes me like, why did I not like see it then? That's the type of stuff that I'm like, how was I so blind? But I didn't really think anything of it. I was like, well, at least that's all they did, all she did, like in front of him and stuff. And he was like, uh, do you think that's okay? And I was like, I mean, she the cops didn't get called this time. He's like, this time? And I was like, I'm not really seeing what you're saying. Like they were on their best behavior. But I mean, to to him, and probably to me now, now that I'm on the other side of this, if I were to like rewind the tapes and play back that that scene, I guess, I probably would hopefully see what he saw. I think a normal person would see what he saw. To me, they were on their absolute best behavior. I was like, I am so impressed. Like, she didn't snap once, she didn't break character, she was like smiling the whole time. Dad was good, the kids were good, like everybody was so good meeting my boyfriend. And but to him, he was like, What was that hell that we just sat through? Like that was atrocious. And I was like, I I couldn't see it. But yeah, to him, it was like so obvious how abusive she was to everyone, including my dad. And I was like, That's I don't know what you saw, but I saw a really like best behavior family back there. So that was, you know, props to them. And he's like, No, yeah. So they did not, and then when we did get married, um, we kind of eloped. So I was on active duty orders before deployment. I was on orders uh down in Mississippi, and my husband came, flew down, surprised me, and proposed. I thought I kind of knew he was gonna propose, but I thought it was gonna be like after deployment. So I thought I had like a year and a half left, like until then. So he proposed, and then we were kind of thinking about it. His best friend called him so we could like show off the ring and like we're engaged, whatever. And then his best friend was like, Hey, I should get ordained online and marry you guys. And we were like, ha ha ha ha, yeah, whatever. And then we hung up, and then we're kind of like that same night, we were kind of thinking about it, and we're like, Why would we wait? I mean, we know we're gonna get married, we don't want to spend $30,000 on a wedding right now. Like, so we called him back and we're like, So, were you serious? And he was not, but he got ordained online, and like five days later, he was down in Mississippi and he married us on the beach, and there was like five people there, and it was great. And my parents were pissed, so they were like fantastic thoughts. I know it was it was such a fun memory, and then we went to Texas Roadhouse after and got drunk, and it was just a fun night, and it's like all of our favorite memory, and we did throw like an official wedding after I came back from deployment, like the white dress and the photos and the family and all of that, just for the show, basically. Um, but by that point I had already gone no context, so my parents were not invited to that um whatsoever. But my dad's family was so my grandparents on that side, and my aunt and uncles that I had been kept from, they flew out. And then, like a month after the wedding, pictures kind of started circling on Facebook, and somehow my parents found out that dad's parents were in North Carolina for my wedding, and he texted them some nasty text like would have been nice to see ya, and you know, whatever. And they texted back an equally, it was very respectful, but it was so petty in the best way, and they said something like, Um, yeah, you know, Papa walked your daughter down the aisle, even though that was your job, but you know, you weren't there to do it, so yeah, like some snide kind of thing. And I was just like, Okay, so it's like that. So, but yeah, they um my parents do not approve of my husband at all, and then when we did run into that. At court. Usually we tried to leave the courtroom, or we tried to let them leave the courtroom, go outside, and then we would leave the courtroom because we didn't want to like catch them in the hall or something and have to walk past them for all the court hearings. So this one time they left the courtroom and we waited like five minutes and we were like, okay, they gotta be gone now. So we walked down the hall and they're still there just talking to somebody. And I was like, great. So we literally had to walk past them to get to the door. And so I'm just like, I'm just gonna like walk past them, not look. And my dad looked at me and he was just like, I love you, just like that. And I don't know, like I sometimes I wish I just had kept walking and like not said anything, but I just like started seeing red because I had done enough therapy, medication, healing by that point that I was like the best I'd ever been, and I had already come to the conclusion about like all these things that I've kind of concluded about my parents and like who my dad is and who my mom is and all these things. Um, this was like one of the last court hearings, and so I'd already done all this work and I turned around, and my husband, I could tell my husband, he was like, No, no, no, no, no, don't do it. But my dad was like, I love you, and I turned around and was like, No, you don't, why would you say that? And then I felt like I was outside my body watching somebody else talk because I was just like, What are you doing now? And my dad just was like taken aback, like he was so off guard. And he and my mom just stared at me and he was like, Yes, I do. I I love you. And I was like, You don't though, because if you did, you know, maybe I'd still be in your life. Maybe if you did love your kids, you wouldn't have abused them all. And then, you know, my mom chimes in, we never abused you in that sweet little voice because the caseworkers are there, and she's like, Honey, we never abused you. You had a wonderful life, you know, everybody is just throwing this out of proportion, and you're believing lies that your husband has told you because he's brainwashed you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And my husband's standing right there, and he's like, huh, okay, interesting. Didn't know I did that. So I was just like, You can't argue with a narcissist, they will just continue to gaslight you. You can't argue with them. And and I knew that, and so I was like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna stand here and get in an argument, but I am gonna say my piece because now I'm in it, so I may as well finish it. And so I've all because I always wondered what would happen if I did get the opportunity to say what I want to say to them. Would they take accountability? Would they be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that we did that to you? I always wondered. And so I was like, well, now I have a chance. So I I said again, I was like, You abused all of your kids. We have a lot of trauma because of you guys. Five of your kids now not want want nothing to do with you. You've lost five of your daughters. Do you not care? And like I said all the things very calmly, like that, that I wanted to say. And then I stopped and I waited for the response. And my dad was just shaking his head, and my mom again just continued the gaslighting and the Michelle Duggar voice, like, I never abused you, you know. If you know where we are, and then they said something my dad said, uh, whenever you decide that you want to obey the rules of our home, you know where we live, you can come, you can come crawling back. Like he thinks I'm gonna come crawling back. And I was just like, okay. And I think that that both of their responses, it was everything that I needed because I was just like, okay, now I know. I said my piece to you, and I gave you the opportunity to take accountability. I gave you the opportunity to apologize, I gave you every opportunity, and you chose to deny, deny, deny, gaslight, and blame me. That's all I need to do. Thank gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:24

Yeah, what a freaking

Writing The Story And Protecting Readers

SPEAKER_02 1:10:26

story. And so speaking of stories, you don't just go on podcasts and tell it.

unknown 1:10:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Yeah, you wrote it up. I did write it, and I also am on TikTok. Um, this is my book. It's called Deliver Us from Mother. Um, it's I didn't intend for it to be like this, but it kind of is just a it's like a tell-all. Um I didn't really hold back. I initially was gonna tone it down a little bit, and then I was kind of thinking, like, why? Like that that's how things get that's how abuse keeps going if you tone it down. Um, like Micah Miller saying, like, no, everything's fine, everything's fine. Like, yeah, if I continue to do that and I don't start talking about it, then that's exactly how they stay. These things stay hidden. So I was like, I'm just gonna tell it like it is. So it is pretty graphic, I think, in parts. Um, there's a lot of trigger warnings in it, there's suicide in it, there's abuse, there's um a lot of stuff like that. So my biggest thing I always tell people if you need to put it down, put it down. If you need to not finish it, I won't be offended, don't finish it. Um, you can get secondhand trauma from things, and I don't want that to happen to anybody else. So if you get to a part where it just is too much for you, please please put it down. It's not worth it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

Yeah. And I appreciate that trigger warning because I actually I have read a few books and and I have full intention of completing most of them. There's one that I won't ever be able to finish.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Um, you know, I did read, I don't know if you're familiar with Shelly Notec. She was, it wasn't a cult um in the terms of there was not like a religious backing to any of it. But she was a mother who controlled her family. And I heard about the story a little bit, and then I actually did try to cover it, or I I mean I did cover it on this podcast, but I'm gonna say try to cover it because I don't think I did a great job. But it's horrific. This woman, people actually did die in within because of her control. I actually I think she's out of prison now.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

Of course she is.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

What was Shelly Notec. It's K-N-O-T-E-K, I believe. And what is the book? The book is something like Don't Tell or something like that. But it was written, the author worked with her daughters to write the book. So it's like their their accounts, and it's it's truly horrific. Um, but like you said, if you don't tell these stories, like silence only helps the abusers. Exactly. It doesn't help anyone else. Yeah. Um I take that back. It could potentially help uh survivors too, maybe. I I there are um there are there are circumstances where it probably helps them too, but silence for sure helps abusers. Yeah. And um, I think that's really cool. I definitely am going to get the book and I'll trudge through it. And but yeah, I like I said, I have a few that I've put down. I have full intention of finishing them.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:40

There was one uh that I I tried to read it right after my sexual assault, and it was by Chantel Miller. It's like know my name or or know your name or something, and it was kind of a high-profile sexual assault case. Um and I tried to read it like a month after being sexually assaulted because I was like, this will help me. And I was like, why did I do that? So I've never gone back and tried to read it again, but I kind of I think I'm you know healed enough now that I I probably couldn't actually learn something from it. But yeah, don't read about sexual assault stories if you just experienced sexual assault assault. It's not a good idea for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:18

I actually a few years ago, uh, some of my friends were talking about Colleen Hoover, the author Colleen Hoover.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

And her book, The It Ends With Us, had just the book, not the movie. The book had just come out, and they were talking about it, and I was not familiar with her. And they said, Oh, you should probably not read that book. And so I picked up my phone. I went to Amazon and was like, What did you say the name of it was again? And they said it and I ordered it, and I said, You don't tell me not to do it. Right. And I was that book was that's fiction. So, but there was a part that was a little bit triggering for me, but it I don't know, I've actually felt really good after reading that book.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

Yeah, but I can see why there was fiction. Um, so it's like you can kind of remind yourself this is not a true story. Uh, but yeah, I think for me, for me, reading other people's cult religious trauma course of control stories um has really helped me understand better why I couldn't see it, like why I was still sucked into it at 25 years old as a grown adult, like um how they have been able to snow and manipulate so many people. And so, like reading other people's books has definitely helped me. I think just like coming fresh uh so that that reading other people's accounts has helped me navigate my own stuff. But when I had just been sexually assaulted and like a month later, I was just like, let me read this book about her. It's a videographic book, again, like mine. And I was like, this is not the time. Why did I nope? Not the time. So if you're in the throes of something and you don't think you could probably handle it, please don't buy my book. Just tell you right now, do not get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:08

I get that. It's almost it's it's validating. You shouldn't need validation to have gone what you've gone through and the steps that you took, but it is validating to hear these other stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

You shouldn't need it, but it it definitely helps. I think the part of it that helps me too is to know that I wasn't the only one. Oh, other people go through this as well. I'm not I'm not some bumbling idiot that like I'm the only one that couldn't see this, like other people go through the same or similar circumstances. And then the thing that the part that helps me so much too is and they got out, and here's how. And so, or like religious deconstruction, that's part of my book. Um, I'm no longer a Christian, I'm no longer religious at all. But it took me a long time to get to that point because I was trying so hard to stay a Christian, and so religious deconstruction is is a big part of my story as well. And so reading other people's experiences with religious deconstruction definitely helped me because in the throes of it, I was just like, I'm a horrible person. Like denouncing God seemed like only something that the devil would do or something like that. So I think hearing other people's accounts of like, oh, you denounced God and you were not struck by lightning the next day, you are still okay. It definitely helped me. And for other people, reading other people's accounts of deconstruction helped lead them back to Christ. So I mean, it just kind of I think reading other people's accounts just helps in general because yes, we all have individual experiences, but usually we all have similarities too. Like somebody else has been through something similar and has gotten out of it, and you could learn something from them.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:53

100%. So, okay, you have a TikTok, you have this book. If people want to follow you and get your book, where can they do all that?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Yeah, so my primary platform is TikTok, it's just Stella underscore McCormick. And then from there you can find all my other links. But if you just have Instagram, it's Stella MC underscore author. Um, and again, my links are all in that bio as well, so you can kind of find everything else. Uh, my book is on Amazon. I am working on getting an audiobook out, so I don't have that yet, but right now it's available in paperback, hardback, and ebook. And then if you have Kindle Unlimited, you can download it for free on there as well. And then also, uh, I have had a lot of people on TikTok tell me that they're boycotting Amazon for whatever reason. Not a problem. Um, if you don't want to shop on Amazon, you can go to like your local library or favorite bookstore and have them order it through Ingram, which is a distribution kind of bookseller site as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:55

So you like covered all the bases. I know I tried.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:58

Incredible. Except for the audiobook. I'm still working on that. It takes a little longer.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Yeah, I

Keep Talking And Question Everything

SPEAKER_02 1:19:04

imagine. Okay, I know that you've already talked for like an hour, but to you in closing, do you have any final words of wisdom or encouragement you'd like to leave?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:14

Um, I think my biggest thing, and I I think it's gonna become like my slogan almost is just keep talking. Um, because like we've talked about, like if you stay silent, then it's only, you know, it's only helping the abusers. So it doesn't have to be about abuse. Keep talking about grief, keep talking about suicide, um, depression, anxiety, mental health, all of the things tell your story. And then my other thing that I want everybody to know is just question things. It's okay to question things. Question your past, question your religion, question your relationships, question your interactions with people, question your beliefs, question things, and if they withstand it, then great, then they're true. If they don't, then maybe you need to, maybe you have something you can look into or something because because the I was never never able to see that it was abuse until I started questioning. Was that healthy punishment and and discipline for doing bad things, or was that abuse? You know, was that religious trauma or was that actually God? What you know, so question things, it's okay. Like I know people like are raised like never question authority, question authority, question your pastor, you know, in in um death of a pastor's wife, question your pastor. They don't know everything. Question your parents, question your, you know, whoever, question things. It's not it's not a bad idea. Like I said, if if you question a belief and then it turns out to stand true, then great. It should.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:47

Fabulous. Those that's fantastic.

Resources, Sharing, And The Farewell

SPEAKER_02 1:20:50

I love it. Thank you so much, Stella, for sharing your sho your story and joining all of us today. This has been incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:58

Thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:00

And I know this won't be the last time. I see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:04

More than willing to come back.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:06

Yes. Okay. Thank you again. Thank you again, Stella, for joining me today. And thank you, Warriors, for listening. You can find the links Stella was referring to as well as her Beyond the Statistics profile in the show notes. I will be back next week with another episode for you. Until then, stay strong and always remember wherever you are in your journey, you are not alone. To learn more, explore episode resources, browse the collections, or register as a guest, visit Beyondthatistics Podcast.com. If today's episode meant something to you, please share it with someone who may need it. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media. Beyond the Statistics is a.5 Panoy production. Music written and performed by Tim Kraut.