The Pulpit and the Badge: Mica Miller, Stacy Peterson & Abuse of Power I Ep. 136

Why This Live Conversation Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:27

Hi, Warriors. It's Ingrid. What you're about to hear is a little different from our regular episodes. I recently had the opportunity to moderate a live conversation titled The Pulpit in the Badge When Power and Authority Go Wrong. I was joined by Norman Peterson, Neil Shorey, and Bruce Beaver for a powerful discussion about the Micah Miller and Stacey Peterson cases and the role power and authority can play in abuse, particularly within the church and law enforcement. I felt this conversation was too important not to share here. Here's our conversation. A lot

Meet The Panel And The Cases

SPEAKER_00 1:31

of you are watching it now from that page beyond the statistics. It's a podcast that's about domestic abuse, sexual assault, and human trafficking. And through that podcast, I got to meet Norma. I'm so happy to be part of this conversation. I think it's going to be very enlightening. And uh the conversation is centering around abuse and power specifically within the church and law enforcement. And these three wonderful people who are finally able to get all together are here to bring their own perspectives on this conversation. So, how about each of you give your introduction? We'll go around the circle. All right, sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Um, hello, everyone. I'm Norma Peterson, executive director of Document the Abuse. I am the sister-in-law to missing Bolingbrook, Illinois, mother Stacy Peterson, who went missing on October 28th, 2007. Um, executive director, like I said, of Document the Abuse, which houses the evidentiary abuse affidavit, and here for this conversation, and and very uh glad that we could have it. And thank you for everyone that's that well, you bear with us and we go through this, but so happy to be able to do this.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Okay. And we Bruce, Bruce, you're here a little bit longer than Neil, so you get to go next.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

I'm Bruce Bieber. I'm the father of Abigail Rose Bieber, Abby to us, uh deputy with the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office, who has two older brothers in law enforcement. Uh, 100% of my wife, Sarah and our uh kids, all of our kids were cops. Although Sarah and I had no law enforcement experience. Abby was tragically murdered by a boyfriend she was breaking up with, also a cop, in January of 2022. And like so many who suffer unspeakable tragedies like that, you uh get out of bed every day to try to do your level best to make sure it doesn't happen to somebody else and to ensure that her name is remembered. Those are simply my mission statements right there. Please speak.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Okay, and Neil.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Well, I'm honored to be with all of you. And my name is Neil, and uh been a pastor for 20 years, and I was Stacy Peterson's pastor, and that's how I got into this work. Uh, way back in 2007 when I was brand new in my career. Um, I knew that I was called to do something more than just that because of what happened with Stacy and um uh also with Kathleen Salvio, who was um also Norma's sister-in-law. And um it was a heartbreaking situation. And now um for the last year and a half, I've served as director of church partnerships with a ministry called Called to Peace Ministries. And I help churches learn to respond well to victims of abuse. And I am so pleased to say that the tide is starting to turn because churches are getting the training that they very, very much need.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Yeah, so pulpit and badge, these are two positions of power within organizations where there should be a strong level of trust, where you should feel protected or safe in each of those situations.

Stacy Peterson And The Badge

SPEAKER_00 4:48

So, Norma, do you mind sharing a little bit more about Stacy and what just in case people are not familiar with that whole situation, so we can see what the connection is?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah, I mean, it it it it's an older case. I mean, she went missing in 2007, so literally almost 20 years ago. So you have to think about what the environment was back then. So uh in Bolingbrook, Illinois, it was what they call a small bedroom community, is the term that they used. So it was just a slowly growing residential community that uh my brother-in-law Drew Peterson was a uh police officer for. Now going back to the badge and and things, um Drew started out his career in the military and in doing so had become part of some things that uh this was like towards the end of the Vietnam War. So there were some things going on to which he may have been involved in that weren't, you know, always of the highest um integrity, shall we say, for the lack of a better term. So he was taught to, it was probably then he was taught to lie, to to uh do the kinds of things that you have to do in order to keep security safe, and that could involve a lot of different bad behaviors. So, you know, kind of started out the process for him then. He then, having the military background, became a police officer. When he became a police officer, this was back, you're probably talking late 70s, early 80s, and so a lot of the drugs of choice back then were like uh coke and things like that. So he was uh then in his police career became part of uh a uh what they call MANS, which was the Metropolitan Uh Narcotics Unit, basically. So they were the undercover narcotics, so he wound up being an undercover cop. So again, kind of teaching him, you know, how to lie, how to how to, you know, present yourself as someone you weren't, you know, because he was doing all these things. And his joke to the family used to be, I have to lie to my girlfriend to go home to my wife. You know, so this is the kind of mindset that it gave him, but also gave him that kind of flexibility to go between, you know, good and bad behavior because you had to conduct this bad behavior in order to get the bad guys. But yet that led some good guys to to make bad decisions sometimes. Now he was already a person who was probably already bending rules anyway by the time he got to that. Now that really gave him the capability and the mindset and the knowledge to be able to do it within a legal format, you know, and and a law enforcement format. So now he is, I mean, ultimately, who holds more power over you than a cop, you know, that can arrest you, that can put you away, that can write you up tickets, that can write you up for things, that can make you go through the legal system. You know, so they hold so much power over you and they use that power. Now we had had some issues with Drew, and when we had a business together, those issues really came to the forefront. So then we started really experiencing a lot of those same types of behaviors that his wives were probably experiencing at the time because it ended very badly for us. And you know, not a lot of people know that. So, but it goes back to that badge, g almost gives them a feeling of impunity. Who's who's gonna hold me accountable? You don't have a gun, you're not my boss, so there isn't a whole lot you can do about it, is there? Because who's going to believe you? You're in a position of power and authority. People go to you for safety. Why would I not believe you? I mean, why why what what's gonna dissuade me or dissuade anybody from believing a comp? It's it's like, you know, one of those positions. So as Neil can well attest to, you know, um the badge and the pulpit kind of come from the same space, you know, different formats, but yet that same ultimate holder of authority over people. So, you know, and that's what happened with Drew. I mean, he didn't start out being all, you know, evil when he when he was younger. I mean, he was still a decent brother and everything. Was he the warmest and kindest? No, but you know, I mean, your brother's your brother, you know, there's different relationships that go with that. So there wasn't anything that my husband, Drew's brother, uh, would have attributed to to who he would become later. So there are certain, you know, this is where your you know, uh nature or nurture kind of come in. And and a lot of times it's a combination of both. It's a combination of both. When given the right circumstances, sometimes it just turns people in a bad direction. And that's what happened to him. He went in a really bad direction.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Bruce, you have looked and studied at a lot of these cases involving law enforcement.

Police Power Control And Technology Abuse

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Have you felt the same? There's just this sense of power that they have that they hold over their victims.

SPEAKER_03 10:37

It um yes, I have looked at thousands at this point of uh of cases of cops who perpetrate abuse of some form or another, uh violent and otherwise, coercion and control. It's the softer side, not physical violence. Um they certainly do use their power and authority. They, as uh Mark Wynne, one of the uh the main uh influencers, if you will, in the space of officer-involved domestic violence. Many prefer to call it police perpetrated or police officer perpetrated domestic violence, uh, will tell you that uh law enforcement, whether it's nature or nurture, whether they come in the door with proclivities towards uh power and control or not, they certainly all get trained to use power and control, to use force, to use techniques to dominate, to use weapons, literally physical weapons, uh obviously uh you know, all sorts of defensive tactics, psychological and otherwise, as well. And as the recent epidemic of revelations about abuse of flock cameras uh pointed out, cops are not uh they don't seem to be able to resist the cheap, low-hanging, candied fruit of using this technology and this access to uh leverage their abusive proclivities. And a lot of them are getting snagged these days, which I think is instructive and helpful because it's just a small peek into the tent that is dark and gigantic that's been going on a long, long time. Flock is a new technology that cops abuse technology to stalk and to otherwise abuse and track former and current intimate partners is not new. It's been going on for decades. And again, the training cops get and the access to the data is as dangerous, arguably, as uh you know, the power and the authority, which Norma, you're absolutely right. There are they're caught on tape all the time saying, Who are you gonna tell? You know, you're gonna call this hard on money. Uh and uh that's that's clearly a known thing. There is there's a federation or a confederation, if you will, an all-boys club. And if we're gonna be fair, we know the lion's share of the statistics are male on female abuse. Does it happen the other way? Yes, of course it does. Um, but I get out of bet to do the most good, I believe, for the most people, and most of that is male uh gender-based violence being perpetrated or abuse and control of other forms on uh on females. And uh yes, they use power, yes, they use control, yes, they know it. And sadly, too many uh permit it, and uh whether passively or actively. So consequently, it continues.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Okay, so both Norma and Bruce mentioned perhaps learning these behaviors. I think there are probably individuals who go into these positions with the idea that they are already bad people and they're just going to use these positions to inflict their damage on others. But

Spiritual Authority And Scriptural Weaponizing

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Neil, you look at the church, and that's not really somewhere where you think of learning these power and control and abusive behaviors. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Well, I I think abusers tend to go places where they can either have actual authority or they have a perception of authority. So if you look at the top 10 professions that people tend to go to if they have abusive tendencies, and you're going to find police officers and pastors in the top 10. Um so it tells you that these are professions that need a whole lot of guidelines and they they need to have better vetting systems to look for people who have psychological profiles that lean in that direction. Um, I'm sure that there are some police officers who go through that kind of vetting, um, and I'm also sure that there are very few pastors who do. Um grave mistake uh because both both the pulpit and the badge carry a significant amount of authority. What I think is even more dangerous about uh pastors than even police officers in this way is that uh people look for pastors um less often to do bad things than even police officers. Uh there have been enough bad acts of police officers in public um in the last five to ten years that people say, oh, well, I don't trust all police officers. And fortunately, people are now saying, I don't trust all pastor pastors by virtue of their title. Uh, but there's a lot of work to be done and a lot less trust to be had. We we should not just give trust automatically uh because we can put ourselves in grave danger.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

I agree. And actually, when you look at a pastor, people who are involved in the church, and in the Micah Miller documentary is very clear on that. When you're involved with a church, you love God and you want to do God's will. And what's really scary about clergy is they can use their interpretation or their wants of God's word to use that on their victims and use that to further control their victims.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

100%. Like anyone who goes into scripture has to recognize that when they read the Bible or whatever their religious interpretation is, they're bringing their own personal lens to it. It doesn't mean like everyone's got an interpretation of what scripture says. And when people are really quick to say, well, the Bible's really clear about this, I always pause and I want to say, well, tell me the parts that are clear, and then I'm gonna know how much I should trust you.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

That's right. That's right. Okay,

JP Miller And Drew Peterson Parallels

SPEAKER_00 16:32

so if we look at JP Miller and we look at Drew Peterson, are there any similarities that you can see right off? I mean, Neil, you probably have the best insight here on any similarities that you can draw between those two.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Well, um, I was on a podcast last night and we played clips of videos of JP in front of the church announcing his wife's death at the end of the church service the night after she died. Um, and it's really fascinating because at the start of the at the start of the service, on the day after she died, he actually got up with his best friend and they he played kind of like dueling pianos, like it was like this exciting thing. So to me, he was celebrating. And that's no different than what Drew did when he went on camera with with uh Joel Bradsky at the time. And and Joel's had a massive turnaround, I have to say, he's had a massive turnaround. He regrets um supporting Drew. Um, and I'm thankful for that that change. Uh, but he went on camera and acted completely foolish. Um, and you could tell there, there, the thing that happened between the the same thing that exists in Drew and JP was they were thrilled to be on camera for the sake of being on camera. Any attention was good attention, and they'll exploit anything.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah. And so, Bruce, I know that your personal experience definitely you see that protection of law enforcement of their of their brothers, sisters, or whatever. And he had a previous history of domestic violence that nobody brought to light. Do you see that positions of power, law enforcement and clergy again? Is there a way that they're able to manipulate society in protecting them or keeping their dirty secrets under wraps?

SPEAKER_03 18:29

How much time do you have?

SPEAKER_00 18:30

We're here. I mean, we started an hour late. We're here all yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

We can go get snacks, Bruce. We can go get snacks. Door dash less. Door dash.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

I'm gonna get my popcorn and less, so I want to hear it all.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

You got the floor, dude. You got the floor.

The Systems That Shield Abusers

SPEAKER_03 18:44

I mean, the the fact that this has uh here, let me try to summarize it. In 20 23 years ago, a woman named Crystal Brame Judson was the wife of a police chief in Tacoma, Washington. They had two children together. The chief was known to be a monster of all the worst countries, a predator, uh, just a horrible, horrible human being. And I've spoken directly with people who went through the academy with him, which is obviously the very beginning, before the beginning of their police career, who said that guy should never have been issued a badge and gun, let alone become a chief. Okay, so you ask, what you know, what what's been going on? So, okay, so what institutionally, socially, culturally, there's gender reasons, there's psychological reasons, there's um an intersection of every force and effect that drives human behavior, including the nature part, you know, because I do believe that to some extent, we don't we just don't know. Nature nurture, yes, some cops come in the door rotten, abusive, just violent predators. Look at what's going on with ice. Ice is only just now admitting they they didn't bar the door and they allowed monsters in, and people are getting killed. What a shock, right? Cause, meet effect, right? So clearly there's a pattern of systemic failure to uh address an issue that's that's a known issue and and a deadly issue. Fortunately, my daughter's case, a fatal PPDV um incident, they're relatively rare. We we all know three to four women a day are murdered by intimate partners in the US, right? But with respect to law enforcement doing the murdering, it's it's a small number, but I'm aware of twelve since my daughter was killed four and a half years ago by cops in the US alone. I digress, 2003. Crystal Brahm Judson murdered by the chief, okay, uh, in front of the two kids. So at that time, just a few years earlier, the foremost um professional uh policy-making group and association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the IACP, they're the big daddy in law enforcement, right? Not the only, but one of the big big dogs. To their credit, said that officer-involved domestic violence is the paramount concern facing law enforcement today. That was back in 1999, before Crystal Brandt was killed. Okay. Paramount, I you know, if you look up Merriam-Webster, it's the very top, right? There's nothing more important to law enforcement than that issue at that time. They recognized it, they saw it, they devoted energy, effort, and resources to it, again, to their credit, and they went around the country and held a series of conferences, regional conferences, and developed a uh a policy and a so-called model policy on how each of the 18,000 law enforcement agencies could construct an internal document that organized how they respond when they go to a DV call for service, a domestic violence call for service, and it happens that it's a cop who's the uh abuser. Everybody knows D V calls are super common and frequent in law enforcement. Everybody knows they are inherently dangerous and unpredictable, and that they kill cops, by the way, frequently. Cops get killed. The line of duty disproportion that rises from responding to domestic violence calls is a huge proportion. So it's in their interest to get a better understanding of the dynamics of domestic violence and how it works. But when they respond to one and a cop's on the other side of it, it changes the dynamics hugely. There's a lot of things that are not the same. Some are apparent, some not. And the more you think about it, the more you'll start spit, you know, spitting them out and figuring, oh yeah, I guess that is different. So the protocols, the practices, the procedures, the cops should follow when that happens. Um IACP developed that way back then. Okay, that then Crystal Brahm happened, they amended their document, they got some pushback. I I nobody could tell you with certainty why, but I can I can tell you with certainty that the the paramount concern got a little lower on the totem pole over time for whatever reasons. Okay, good, bad, or indifferent, not the point. I I can tell you what was once the most important thing was not. And now somebody who was there in those regional conversations told me, uh, I'm not gonna name names, but that they got it they wisely gathered a bunch of cops who themselves were abusers. Abusive cops, agreed to be interviewed. And and how do you do it? You know, what's what's like getting the bank robber, right? How'd you rob the bank? How'd you get in there? What were your tricks? And they said it was super, super easy to get the rookie cops who would be sent out, the patrol officers, to respond to the DB call at my house, me the you know, the salty old sergeant or something, or lieutenant who who's been abusing his wife for years. And here comes the neighbor calls, here's the fight, cops come. They told these senior level IACP people it was so easy, it's like playing pin the tail on the donkey for with kids. They're blindfolded, they'd spin them around and push them out the door. It was that easy to redirect them, to deflect their attention, to disarm them, to neuter any effort to hold them to account. So when you ask, how does it happen? You know, that's it, you know, and a thousand other things. Again, gender, psychology, culture, the blue line, the blue wall, um, history. In in eighteen I know, I I know there are other people and I'm gonna I will never shut up, but in eight in eighteen seventy-four, in North Carolina, there was a case. State the Oliver. The Chief Justice then, it was a it was a big deal DV case because back then, and it's not just to wrap it a little bit in church stuff, which is not my thing, you all know. But the there are people that think this notion that a man can hit a husband can hit a woman with a stick no larger than his thumb, a switch, right? A stick that it's it as far as I know, and you guys are the experts, it's not comes from the Bible, but there was law on it that said that was the case, and that got litigated. And everybody said, Oh, good, finally we're gonna put an end to that. And the the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, North Carolina, said, you know what? That's that's right. We can't allow that. Uh, a man does not have an inherent uh right to beat his wife with any size stick. So, so, oh yay, court, we changed, you know, the stick thing went away, and they don't have a right. But what they also said, they they took, they gave with one hand and they took with the other. The hand that they took, they said, but, but, while we are saying here tonight, at in or today, whatever, in 1874, a man doesn't have the right to be his wife just because she's his wife. We're not gonna peek behind the curtains. That's their private business. Okay? There's this curtain rule you'll see. If you Google curtain rule, what the heck is Bruce talking about? You'll see, oh, he didn't make that up. That's real. And I'm telling you today that the vestiges of that mentality linger. There are too many, mostly men and occasionally a woman, who go around thinking that's their private business. No, my friends, it's a crime. It's a crime, and the crime is the public's business. It's prosecutors, prosecute crime should be whether the victim wants to or not. Bank gets robbed. The bank doesn't say, oh, it's okay, don't prosecute the guy, even though we caught him and he's got all the money. You know, that doesn't happen. The FBI is still gonna prosecute you. Why with rape or intimate partner violence do we say, oh, she's not cooperating, so no case, sorry. No, it's still a crime. It should be an evidence-based prosecution. I'm gonna shut up. Sorry.

Submission Myths And Spiritual Abuse Tactics

SPEAKER_00 27:21

You have made my brain go in like a bunch of different directions of things I want to ask. So I appreciate that. And I'm going to do a little bit of a loop around, but so Neil, like Bruce mentioned, most of it, most of the violence we hear about is male on female. And we all recognize that both men and women can be perpetrators, they can both be victims. In religion, it's primarily a patriarchal environment. And again, interpretations of the Bible, women are supposed to be submissive to their husbands. And again, that documentary really highlights JP's interpretation of that. Micah was beautifully said, you're married to God first. And that that uh that social media post really kind of was reaffirming to a lot of of women who have been victims of domestic violence. What what do you have to say about all of that?

SPEAKER_02 28:21

I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you to get this question. Bruce, how long do I have? Um Yeah, I I think you know, there are all sorts of people who represent um God and there are all sorts of churches that are open. Um, just because a church is called solid rock does not make it solid nor rock. And that was the name of JP Miller's church. So I just really, really encourage you out there, if you are going to a church where there's consistency from the pulpit that makes you feel less than, you're a woman who goes to church and you feel like, why does it feel like I everything about me is being controlled? That's a problem. And that's also not biblical at all. And I can show, I can talk to you about all sorts of reasons why that's not the case. Um, what I always do is I as I talk to people about issues when it comes to the issues of submission, and people want to make submission out to be something um that is for women to do versus men. That passage is often misinterpreted. And it's talking about in the context of all of our relationships, it says, be uh subjected to one another. So this is this is about how we relate to each other. We we choose in male and female, in friendships, and in all of our relationships, we're supposed to put the other first. That's the context of that passage. But abusers grab a hold of the one thing and they say, Look, you're supposed to do this, so make sure you do this. In other words, I should have sex whenever I want it. You should do whatever I say, you need to cook all the meals. I'm going to pull you off the shelf and use you like an object and then put you back on a shelf and you don't get to come off that shelf until I tell you so because God's ordained it that way. I think that kind of spiritual abuse is one of the most insidious forms of abuse that there is because of this. If I can get you as a Christian, a person of faith, to believe that God is actually against you, then it doesn't matter who's for you. Uh it's an elite, like in the legal system. If the Supreme Court rules against you, do you have anywhere to go? The answer is no. How much worse is it if you're you're a person of faith and you believe that God stands against you? This is what these manipulators do. They convince the victims in the church that God's against you. So you have no one to appeal to.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Right. And that's supposed to be your safe place. That is supposed to be your sanctuary. I can speak from experience that what abusers do is they tear you apart from all sorts of places. And it's important to understand that um abuse can take many forms. Spiritual, obviously, for one, financial, physical, sexual, emotional, all of those things. And abusers will use every single one of those pieces to dismantle you. And in my own experience, my abuser, I was clinging to my church as hard as I could because that's the only piece of me I felt there was anything left. And he was doing everything in his power to rip it apart. When I watched that documentary, I wanted to like crawl out of my skin because mine was not clergy. Uh, he honestly, I don't even know how much he believed in God at the time, but he still used that because he knew it was important to me. And it's that much scarier when it's a person who's behind the pulpit, who's instructing the church, who is leading you in in worship, dictating what you are supposed to do.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

It's it's terrifying, actually. And that this is why you don't just trust someone because they um have a title that gives them authority. You you you pay attention to behaviors, you pay attention to patterns. And also, it doesn't matter what they say. Uh JP Miller preached all the time against um adultery, uh, but really these are just pseudo-confessions on his part. Um, he talked all the time about how women need to needed to make sure they they met the needs of the man and how if needs weren't met, then temptation was going to hit the man 20 times uh by the end of the day. All he was doing was telling the whole church what he was all about, which was um taking advantage of anybody uh around him. We have to remember um he got with, he he groomed Micah from a very young age, and she became the worship leader in his church. He then officiated the wedding for for her and her first husband Jeremy, and then had an affair with her. And it wasn't an affair, it was clergy sexual abuse. You can't have an affair with the congregant. It's clergy sexual abuse. We have to get the labels right.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yes. And when you have that imbalance of power, there that's grooming. That's uh we actually we have a question. Um, is there a correlation between positions of power and domestic violence? Not just badge and pulpit, but other occupations that appear to be a position of power? I'm I would say absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

100%. You look at the profess you look at professions that have power and authority. Uh the number one rate of abusers is military, 40% of all active military is abusing, just is. Uh I don't like that to be true. It's, but it is a it's a statistical reality. Uh you look at any positions where people gravitate towards power. It can be a physician, it can be an attorney, it can be a pastor, it can be a first responder. Um uh obviously uh just anything. People want to have positions of authority. And it should be a major red flag for us if we see in us or in other people this tendency to run towards power. Uh, because power that is not used to uplift other people is very, very dangerous power.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Well, and I don't want to label anybody with personality disorders, but narcissism is a very hot topic right now. And Delila just mentioned many gravitate to positions that have power over another doctors, lawyers, politicians, for example. Those are professions that you see a lot of narcissistic traits in. And narcissistic personality disorder individuals can be and typically are abusers. Um, I'm gonna shift to Norma because I know Stacy confided in you quite a bit, and I know she did you as well, Neil.

When Help Feels Too Dangerous

SPEAKER_00 34:43

What did she voice any concerns or worries about her actual position and how is she supposed to ask for help when the help is the one who's actually abusing?

SPEAKER_01 34:58

In the last conversation that I had with Stacy, which was probably about a week before she went missing, she had called to give me a new phone number from a burner phone that her sister had gotten her because she knew that Drew was listening to her phone calls. So there's there's those that that element of control. And we talked and she was comparing the two brothers. And she said, I don't understand how one could be how my husband could be how he was, and how Joe could be who he was. And she says, I just don't understand this. And she said that she wanted me to have the phone number, but that she was concerned and that I apologized to her. And I told her I was sorry that she had to go through the things that she had to go through because of him, and that I would stand by her side no matter what. But I know that she had a huge concern about telling any of us because she was concerned about what would happen, what would he do, what would we do to any of us? Because who could she go to that he wasn't gonna come to the door, that he didn't have a gun and was gonna threaten we had been threatened by him with a gun. We knew what he was capable of. I mean, do you think that they're gonna do it when they do? No, because unlike narcissists, we have a certain moral code. So most of us think, okay, no one will go that far because we have that certain moral code. Narcissists don't run on that code. There isn't any type of uh uh uh trigger there to say, don't go beyond this point. That's what puts them in those positions of powered authority, is because more than likely, like you said, narcissism being a huge one, you have to be able to make certain decisions when you are in a business environment. And they're going to require sometimes things that are going to make certain people unhappy, cause discomfort, things like that. So in order for them to be able to make those decisions and into and to grow certain companies, there has to be a certain amount of almost narcissism. And it seems like the higher up the ladder they go, the higher that narcissism goes. Because they they do have uh uh studies out there that have to do with CEOs and narcissism or you know how that goes. Also, uh there was just a study that was put out about um levels of wealth and what that does to your sense of right and wrong. Depending on how how wealthy you are, can you then start to excuse certain behaviors because now you've hit a certain point where you can uh uh justify acting in a way that is going to hurt someone in the name of a business or in the name of something you need to do or want done. And so now it allows you to then act in that manner and not feel guilt about it or use it as an excuse. So it was what Drew did, it's what John Paul did, it was what, you know, it's what so many in these positions do because it and it seems like it's a natural it is a natural gravitation because it gives them those elements. There is a thing called a power wheel that if you look up, you know, on the National Domestic Violence hotline, they probably got it and things like that. But that, you know, it it it will show you how this wheel works and how those within those systems use it. And and yes, ultimately wherever you hold power, whether it's judges, whether it's it's law enforcement, whether it's pastors, you know, CEOs, people that are in elevated positions of power, a lot of times just tend to gravitate towards certain behavior patterns the higher up they go. And and I think it's inherent to I not inherent. I mean it's it's choices. But those those choices I think are brought to a greater level when the higher up you go, and also the greater the consequence. Because now you've got more people that you can affect, or you can affect them even deeper because you are in that elevated position.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

Right. Victims of abuse are faced with so many walls and so many blocks on how to get out. The question that's asked over and over again is why didn't you just leave? When it started getting bad, why didn't you just leave? But you're faced with all of these hurdles you have to overcome. And like you said, Stacey was scared. And I was scared, and other survivors and victims were scared and for valid reasons. There's so many like the hurdles. There's financial hurdles, there's if you have children, or perhaps your aging parents are living in a house, pets, all of these things that you're you can't just get up and leave because you're afraid of who's being left behind. But when you have these people in authority who can control the narrative, who do you go to?

Safety Planning With Independent Advocates

SPEAKER_00 40:23

I I don't know which of you feel like you could answer that question, but what do you do when you're really immersed in the church and your pastor is the one who's abusing you? What do you do when you need to call the police, but your abuser is the police? What are you supposed to do?

SPEAKER_03 40:41

I'm happy to tackle that. Um, you know, a couple of thoughts. Uh I want to go back to uh Norma a little bit, also, by the way. You know, you started that you kicked off that question to Norma about, you know, the the narc the teeth off the narcissistic thing and the tendency for them to exert power and control. And the power and control wheel, by the way, is a wonderful tool, and I recommend people find that if they're wondering, hey, is this okay? Is this normal? I don't care who. Who's what pastor, badge, plumber, butcher, baker. Look at the power and control wheel, apply it to your life. If you think there's any possibility that what you're experiencing is not right, that tool may help you conclude that yeah, you're you're in a bad place. And then um, and I and you don't need to be a narcissist, you don't need to be in a position of power to be an abuser. And uh for sure. I mean all sorts of people abuse. Um but because I've gotten a little bit mouthy on my uh efforts here to hold police accountable when they perpetrate crimes, imagine that. Um some people out there actually think I know something, and they will reach out to me offline and say, I am in the middle of an awful, I did get the power control wheel. I do know I'm in crisis. And that's where I am not qualified to answer that very distinct question and direct question you just asked, Ingrid. So, what do I do? Because I'm not a complete moron, I ask people who do know, who are professionals, you know, and and who I trust and respect and who have been in the trenches on the very front line, you know, at the leading edge here of the spear, dealing with that crisis at the granular level. And I ask them their advice, what do I say to them? Because I sure know I don't know. Yeah, I don't know the right answer. And the universal consensus that I got back, and I'd like to hear from you guys, because you guys have been in this a lot longer than I, and and you you some of you even do it professionally, is you have to find an independent, unaffiliated victim advocate who's trained and who is not associated and affiliated with anybody. And I could see somebody in the church. I that's an excellent point you made, Neil, about what you know, and and the analog, and I'm playing it through my mind, it kind of holds. If law enforcement's the one, there's no, like you said, you know, Supreme Court. I like that. Where do you go? Well, if if if you're faithful and you your whole life is predicated and built around that foundation block, and they're completely defining what that means and who you are and why you fit in that structure, you you you don't have an option. There is no exit. And and I get that. That's that's awful. But and all the more reason why somebody not affiliated with the church, not affiliated with the law enforcement agency, not affiliated with, you know, uh I don't know, pick pick your abusing uh authority. And and that person can help you. And the whole when, you know, why why didn't she leave thing? Only she knows when it's safe. Only she is the master. I've learned that with certainty. Do not tell somebody you have to do this or you must do that, and this is when. Never ever. That is not for you to say. That woman knows far better than anybody else on the planet what what's going to happen, what's likely to happen, what he's capable of doing, and when he's capable of doing it. Um, but but that victim advocate can help the safety planning process in a in a constant. Confidential way in a safe way. So if anything uh has been learned by my peace-sized brain, it's tell them to go to a independent victim advocate, period at the end. And you know, maybe help them find one if you can.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Okay, Neil, I'm gonna have you add on to that, but I might this might be kind of a a whopper of a question, or so if you if you're like fire fire away.

When Churches Drift Toward Cult Dynamics

SPEAKER_00 44:57

Okay. So because I know we're talking about specifically within the church. So one thing that extreme churches can become are cults. And I don't know how well versed you are on religious cults, but when I was listening and watching that documentary, I kept thinking, my goodness, I feel like he is like on the cusp of that. Yeah. And um, so Grace had mentioned so many women don't even know they need to get out. Well, especially if you're born into something and you're raised in this culture, you have no idea that that is your normal. So you don't know that it's not okay. Uh I'm not even gonna ask a question. I'm just going to mute myself and let you let you go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

Floor is yours, Neil.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Well, well, this is why community is so important for us. Um, and it's so important to have, to Bruce's point, to have people that are outside of your immediate sphere of influence, because the closer people get to us, the more influence they tend to have on us. And if we're in a very unhealthy and and I would even add, frightening system, sometimes we don't know it until we walk out of like kind of our tribal setting. So I would say to anybody in a church who is uh being abused, and you might not even know you're being abused because you're told that actually that's okay behavior, that you're supposed to obey your husband, that you're supposed to have sex on demand, that you're supposed to wear clothes that he says uh you can wear and not wear clothes he says you're not supposed to wear. Um I want to encourage you to look outside of your tribe uh because I I know that that's not that's not something that feels good to you. And if you're starting to wonder about is there something more for me than this, is is this really God's heart for me? And is this the kind of life that I want to live? It's not going to get better. Um, it's not going to get better if you have more children. It's not going to be better if you cook dinner exactly the way he says the goalpost is always going to move because the issue is not you. The issue is power and control, and it's being used over you. Um, Jesus is very different. In scripture, he says that all of the power that we have is meant to lift people up. And that's what he did. He lived a sacrificial life and he died for us. That's what Christians believe. That is powerful. He's the example. So if you have a pastor who's not living that way, or women in the church, if you have a husband who's not living that way, but using the Bible as a weapon instead of a source of encouragement for you and your family, you need outside help. And I completely agree. You need an advocate for you that's independent of your church setting. It's very, very important. Uh Called to Peace, the organization I work for, we have three different pieces to it. One is advocacy. We have about 200 trained advocates across the nation that we can connect you to for free. Uh so great resource. We also have uh what's called restore groups. They are our support groups that are online and in person, all over the country. They run on a trimester system. I can help you get connected to that too. And if you're if you're in a church and you're like, man, I'm not sure my church really understands abuse. They're not bad people, but I I want to have a conversation with my pastor. I'm just not really sure how to have that. Um, I can help you do that. That's part of what I do at Call to Peace. So it takes people outside of your system. That's just one route. There are lots of other organizations that do it. There are lots of DV organizations right where you are. Um, if you need help um anywhere in the country, you can dial 800-799-Safe and they will connect you to local resources for you wherever you are in the nation.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

So

Institutional Duty To Intervene

SPEAKER_00 48:41

sort of along those lines, uh, what what responsibility do institutions or other members of, for instance, of a church have if they're witnessing abuse happen?

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Well, I can give you just some thoughts on JP Miller's church because I saw a lot of comments online of people saying, Well, I knew he was bad from the time I first heard one of his sermons. And I just want to be like, well, you might know that because you haven't been indoctrinated. Um, I say this often that churches are the easiest communities in the world to groom. And what I mean by groom is you have a you have uh a pastor or someone in the church who's being abusive, and he's not gonna be abusive to everyone, right? He's not gonna be abusive probably to his elder board. What he's gonna do is he's gonna be on great behavior and he's gonna go on missions trips and he's gonna sing really well, and he's gonna use all of his charismatic gifts, and people are gonna be like, that guy's awesome. He clearly loves God. Uh, but but not recognizing that the way someone presents on Sunday in church is not necessarily how they're going to present to their one they're supposed to love the most in private. And that is why this is so successful. So, what is the the responsibility for a church? Well, number one, you need to have people who are in charge of the pastor, so the pastor can't make all the decisions. Elders or deacons or whoever it is in the church that has leadership needs to be able to remove a pastor who is doing the things that JP Miller or or any other pastors that we've seen make horrible, awful, evil decisions. Um Bill Hybels at Willow Creek made horrible decisions under the cloak of being an egalitarian leader who supported women. He had women on his staff, but he was abusive in many ways to them. Uh and it took them, it took a long time for people to recognize that. Um leadership has to take the mantle, not be afraid to speak up. And if you can't remove the senior pastor of your church, uh if your leadership won't do it, you don't have leadership. You have a good old boys' club.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Same thing for law enforcement, you think, Bruce?

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Obviously, you know the answer to that.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Umorous, Bruce.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

Yeah, twice on Sunday, right, Bruce? Absolutely. Yeah, um you you said some interesting things too. Uh we had a recent uh fatal OIDV, PPDV case in Pinellas County, my home county. Uh a deputy killed uh a former intimate partner and then took his own life. And it it's interesting when you ask about you know the command staff and the response of the agency, the superstructure built around law enforcement on the command level. And I because I've sort of uh become somebody who you know, as a lay person best can studies these cases, I've seen hundreds, I believe it's actually thousands now, and you start to see patterns. And when you follow them, the responses to the uh to the incidents, the episodes from those command staffs, from the leaders of those organizations, you start to see patterns amongst the comments too. You know, the behavioral thing that generated the issue itself, the the psychodynamics, all of that stuff at the bottom, and then the response to it. Even in the media and you know, the political realm. Uh this is a interplay that plays out before us for generations, right? So we had one of these cases, and the the sheriff, a smart guy, a guy I respect, I've met, I've spoken to before, he he laid it off on mental health. He said this officer um exhibited um some sort of a mental health crisis and took the life. And, you know, uh you said it before that it's it's a personal behavioral choice, right? I I call it fists and fangs, right? You they hide it. You said it a minute ago, Neil. They they know not to do it around uh whoever their superior is in the church, uh, because it'll the game will be over, right? They they they they've showed their their inner evil self and it's done. We know abusers save the fists and the fangs for the the dark when the door is closed, when the lights are out, when when there is no boss around. And I I was thinking as the sheriff was saying it was mental health. No, it was not mental health, it was a choice. This person, you know, decided to murder somebody to perpetrate a homicide and then take his own life. It is not a fact of uh residue of PTSD, and yes, cops see a lot of trauma. We know that. But so do firefighters, EMS, doctors, emergency room nurses, they see blood and guts. They don't have that rate. We talked about the rate, the prevalence of abuse before in different industries. Cops are higher than the civilians. We know this. The exact amount by which is debated, and it's a it's a third rail that I would uh urge caution because cops, as tough as they are, you know, the Mucho Macho, we're in the trenches together, we need to have each other's backs. You poke, you go anywhere near telling them that they're a bunch of abusers and their skin gets super, super thin. And love them to death. My sons are cops, by the way, and I obviously I adore, respect, and admire them, and and and but I don't respect, adore, and admire cops who are abusers. And this is such simple math to me. It's a crime. It's a crime. Why should the chief, the the the sheriff, why should they sanction this? Why should they permit this thing just because it's behind a curtain, just because thousands of years ago men, you know, uh treated women uh as mere chattels, you know, mere property. That is not good enough. It's 2026, folks. Let's get on the stick here.

DARVO Charisma And The Danger Of Leaving

SPEAKER_00 54:48

You know, well, both of you said something, uh, you each said something that made me want to expand a little bit. Neil, you mentioned uh charismatic, I think maybe you said at some point. And again, if you watch that documentary, um John Paul is very charismatic. He's out there and he's very engaging and it draws people in. And that is something that a lot of abusers do possess. And that's how they draw people in. That's how they keep everyone else fooled. And Bruce, like you said, it's different behind closed doors. And I think we need to stop excusing the abusive behavior. It's not well, he was drinking, or maybe he was doing drugs, or he had a really bad day, or he was tired, or he was hurt as a child, or she's please.

SPEAKER_03 55:37

Everything you just said was he. He, he, he, he, he. Which is rare because usually it's she. It's what did she do? What did she not do? What was she wearing? What was she drinking? Where was she going? Why was she out there? You know, she should have cooked uh better, not worn that. It you flipped it, which is what should happen, right? They should be looking at his behavior, he's the officer. And it isn't her, it's not her fault. She didn't do it. And and to this whole notion of he's shiny and bright and charismatic in public and an absolute monster behind you know the whole Jekyll and Hyde thing. Absolutely the case. It happens every single time. Because they're so you know manipulative and and everybody knows what Darvo is, right? Uh deny, attack, uh, reverse victim and offender. For the people who are listening, maybe they don't know Darvo. I I urge them, get the power and control, don't do anything. Bruce, who, forget it. Darvo, look that up, and the power and control wheel. That's it. Just to do those two things. Learn a little bit about both of them, and you will be far better equipped to go out in the world and and recognize the monster that killed my daughter, Abby. Abby was my daughter, not the monster. The monster, um super charming. I I mean, uh, you know, went to dinner with him, funny, intelligent, great writer, accolades, this, that, and the other thing. I met the guy, he swam in my pool. Um, you know, we had meals together. And, you know, love bombing is a thing. I didn't know it. I never heard the phrase. You know, they they they turn that up to 11, you know, with the charm and the charisma and all that crap. Uh and and then I uh I tell guys who have teenage daughters, if if they're just entering into the whole dating thing, please learn about you know, love bombing, too much different. Abby didn't, I don't I I really don't believe Abby knew. She did not go through the cycle of abuse, you know, don't wear this, cook me that, don't go there, don't see them anymore. But I know for sure that was coming, had it gone on. She jumped right to the uh termination exit phase, the most dangerous phase. Maybe that's the third thing you want to remember if you only remember you know two, two or three things. When you're the point when you are ready to leave, and it's what takes six, seven, eight times before a woman really leaves, right? That seems to be the consensus number. You are at the height of danger. That's the real danger zone. Abby short-circuited that on a I don't need to get into details, but on a vacation and said, no, we're done, and that's it. And boom, he just shot her and killed her. Right then and there. And I've only recently learned, you may be interested if you're psychologically uh motivated, but that's transferable, apparently. The the these guys don't do it once either, by the way. Uh, an abuser like this, they do these things successively, and they commit other crimes as well. But they may well have had a succession of victims before that and not killed them and had had a breakup. Maybe it was ugly, maybe it was violent, but there was no fatality. But apparently, psychologists are ne who are studying this say that this there's a residue of pent-up anger and and dangerous predatory emotions that they carry to the next intimate partner relationship. So I think it might well have been my daughter's sad fate to bump into him after a succession of these uh norma you mentioned before, that I I have spoken with that presented with China Ratner, who herself was abused by the guy that killed my daughter earlier.

SPEAKER_04 59:25

Right?

SPEAKER_03 59:26

She survived it. Not without scars, I don't mean that literally, but you know, she suffered mightily at his hand, but survived. Good for her. But the fact remains that um that might have increased the danger. So you so young women might be bumping into a a monster at just the wrong time. And we get three to four a day, a day. So so clearly they're out there, and I don't mean to sound like a hysterical disguise falling person, and all men you know are awful, but there are awful men out there, and it's almost always men.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Very true. Can can I add something real quick? I just feel like this is super important to the conversation. Um, so many times I've heard women say, well, you know, he just loses control sometimes. So then I love to ask the question. So so tell me what that looks like. And do you know what? Do you know what I'll always find? I've never heard it differently. They'll say, Well, he just broke everything in the house, lost control, broke everything in the house. And I'll say, Tell me what he broke. Did he break, tell me what he broke of his? Oh, that's interesting. He he accidentally broke my stuff. Oh, so here's what I'll tell you about that. That wasn't accidental. It was his power that he was wielding against you, and his defense is sometimes I'm angry. Um, abuse is not an anger issue, it's an intentional use of power against another person. So when you see someone who looks out of control but they can hold it together at work, when you see someone who's um out of control at a moment, at an intimate moment, yet uh they're the the good citizen or the police officer of the year, um, pay attention. Pay attention. The behavior always proves out. Uh, this is a choice. Um, there are plenty of people who are mentally ill that never commit crimes. Plenty of people. So I just want to say just be really careful about pathologizing um uh abuse. These are choices. These are choices. It's very, very rare that it's a personality disorder that leads abusive behavior. Now, if it's someone who just, man, they go out in public and they don't control themselves and they're breaking everything and they're doing crazy stuff publicly, they're probably in the small percentage of people with personality disorders. But if they can control it, except for when they're behind closed doors, nah, it's a choice.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

You're absolutely right. Now a book that I read that I actually was reluctant to read because I kept thinking, I know why he does that, is Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That. And I finally did read it, and it was very insightful because abusers abuse because they're abusers. It's not because they're drunk, it's not because they're mad. They can flip it on and off. I promise you, I do more things than just watch Netflix documentaries, but I watched the Gabby Petito uh documentary as well, and that's a prime example of how it's turned on and off. The cops arrive, and you know, he's joking, and everybody's joking, making fun of like, oh yeah, my wife can get like that too. Right. There's the charisma, there's the on and off switch right there.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:32

It's Darvo in operation.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:35

Okay. For what it's worth, my son teaches that video from the Gabby Petito Netflix, and and he's not alone. Lots of cops use that to teach TV response.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Yes, it is uh such a prime example of victim abuser and how they can get confused. And

Trauma Biology Health Costs And Grace

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

that's another thing I want to bring up is that it's very easy for us to watch these documentaries and potentially judge the victims of like, okay, if he, if if JP's up there preaching all of this stuff all the time, how could nobody see what was going on? How could Micah not realize this was not okay? If, you know, how did Gabby not realize the relationship she was in was not okay? Those are pieces that are put together. And abuse is something that happens very insidiously. And they they manipulate everything in your brain to where you don't even know what the reality is anymore. You can't even trust yourself, let alone anyone else. So I do want to make sure that we offer grace to any victims or survivors who are out there who are struggling to recognize what they're in, trying to get out, trying, struggling to heal. It's a very long process and it's it's a very difficult process.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Can I add it would be remiss of me, maybe us, I don't know, not to say, and this is not my expertise at all, but I'm aware the neurobiology of trauma in in DV situations is a obviously it's a very significant thing. Talking about grace for victims, their their brain isn't even functioning the way it did before the abuse, or it hopefully will after the abuse. So you know, again, back to you know, why doesn't she just leave? Well, there are very good neurobiological reasons why, because she knows she might die if she tries to leave right now, let alone the pet, the dog, the school, the kid, the mortgage, you know, the dreams of reasons why. But but literally, your brain doesn't even work uh the way it's supposed to. You are trying to save yourself. That that matters.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:42

100%. Long-term exposure to abuse uh does horrific things to you. Um not only does it change how you make decisions, I mean, fundamentally it it puts you in a permanent state of fight or flight. Um and that uh the the effects of cortisol on the body over time create unbelievable, um, unbelievably high percentages of autoimmune diseases. So it's very, very common for you to talk to abuse victims and you'll find out, well, they've got a lot of autoimmune diseases. I wonder what's going on. Well, you don't have to wonder. Um we know what happens, that when someone is under duress for that length of time, the body turns on itself. And um it's it's it's really fascinating. I saw a study that um lupus is one of the autoimmune diseases that is uh it's the closest one that there's a provable correlation between course of control um over time and higher uh prevalence of lupus in populations of abuse victims. Um the average abuse victim lives significantly less time. Um this affects lifespans up to 20 years on average. Uh so someone who is supposed to live to be 85 lives to be 65. Um, there is a high cost to everyone, and this is an issue that calls for all of us to stand up and say no more.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

And and to your point, I'm sorry, I just had a conversation recently with an advocate of four plus decades who is absolutely convinced that the AMA, the American Medical Association, you know, uh, and uh it's a public health issue, to your point, Neil, and that cancer and cardiac disease also flow from this. There are studies proving this. So, you know, maybe those of us and you guys have been in this far longer than I. Pushing the gender-based violence, the IPV, the DV, all these issues from the angles and the perspectives we do, all well and good. But maybe this whole medical approach is another avenue that needs to be further explored to push the same goal.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

Well, and just to further clarify, that's just the psychological abuse. That's not even considering the physical abuse that is inflicted. Strangulation, for one, offers long-term, long-term effects. And it could be just a one-time strangulation. There's also the financial, for those who may be listening thinking, why does this conversation even affect me whatsoever? The financial implications on the economy are huge. I mean, billions of dollars lost because of the financial um side effects of domestic violence. So what, and maybe each of you can answer this, what would you suggest if somebody is listening and thinking, some of this sounds familiar to what I'm experiencing right now, but I'm not quite sure? It's very easy to excuse away a lot of behaviors. But what would your suggestion be for them? And what should they do right now? Or on the other hand, what if somebody is listening thinking, I think my loved one is in this exact situation? What should these people do? Don't all talk at once.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:58

Yeah, I'll

What To Do If It Feels Familiar

SPEAKER_02 1:07:59

I I'll jump in. I'm okay with it. Um, I I would say um I would love to talk to you. Um, I'd love to reach out and have a conversation with me and uh or anybody in my organization, any of us would love to have a chance to talk with you. Like I said, we have hundreds of volunteers around the country, um, hundreds of female um trained victim advocates. Uh, every single person in my organization, staff, and volunteer has one full year of training. And we talk about all of these things. So when you talk to there's when there's no one that you can talk to that does not have excellent training, um, please reach out. You will be validated, you will be believed, and we will help you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:44

So we have a question that says, y'all wouldn't y'all would know firsthand how does it impact the loved ones in the victim survivor's life? And I'm going to say I know who this person is. That's my sister. So actually, she would probably know how to answer this question better than anyone. But do do any of you want to answer that?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

How does it affect the survivor's family?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Yeah, the vic how does it affect their life? I mean, Bruce, you've taken this on, as this is now your life mission.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:15

Yeah. And my my son's lost a sister, who you, you know, they were so close you couldn't put a a card between them. You know, my my wife, her mother lost a best friend, her partner, who she did so much with and only with her. People say in grief, you you know, you not only lose the other person, you lose the part of you that only existed in in relation to that person. You know, that I mean, my son, one of my they have a special language that's now gone dormant because there's nobody to speak it with, you know, co you know, child code stuff. Um nothing is ever the same. Nothing can be the same. Um, but like every name of everybody we mentioned who's lost somebody, the the survivors are not shockingly motivated to do exactly what I'm doing. I cannot allow this to happen to somebody else in good conscience. And how could I go to my grave uh not having not even trying? And people go, Oh, you're so brave, that's so this. No, it isn't. It's just basic humanity. I mean, how could you not do that? If you're you know, it could be you're you you're just not equipped for medical or other reasons. I don't know, you can't, maybe you're you know, incapable of of effectively communicating anything uh in in a substantive way, and you just can't do it. But but the desire to do it has to be among every survivor, I believe.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

I will say I and I don't know because I was a victim, I wasn't the family member, but I imagine watching your family member be abused, whatever form of abuse it may be, is hard. And we don't leave when we say when somebody tells us we should leave, we're going to stay. And like you said, Bruce, on average, it's seven times we're going to go back. And it's, I can imagine that is very draining on a family member and very disheartening and very scary. And I would say, from this standpoint, if my family members would say, you either leave or we just need to leave you alone. We can't do this anymore. You're just shutting that person off to probably the only lifeline they may have. And but at the same time, you also have to recognize your own mental health because it is hard and it is hurting you and it is draining to you too. Um, so it's it's kind of a loaded answer. I think you need to offer your support. I think you need to let that person know, I am here for you when you're ready. I will support you. I will be there. Uh, you could even maybe say, I just I can't watch this on the daily with you getting hurt over and over and over again. Um sorry, we got a question. Okay, this is my sister again. Um, is there any evidence on neurobiological impacts for family? I have no idea. I don't know that answer. And the abusers is different.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:18

That well, that's that's an interesting question because um I do know I this isn't an exact answer, but I do know that being in proximity to abuse affects people's um uh neurobiology as well. Uh and we know this because it like in most states in the US, um, if um there's a child that's present when uh the mother is being abused by by uh the husband, it's considered child abuse, even if the per even if the child was never touched. And I want to add to that and say there there's so many people that'll say, well, he's a really good dad. He just abuses the mom. There's no such thing. Uh if you're a husband and you abuse your wife, you're not a good dad.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

Say it louder.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:03

For the people in the back. That's right. Yeah, statutes, uh, you know, legal legal laws will um uh those are aggravating factors. You can get a greater sentence because that child was present, no more than that. You know, if they witnessed the abuse and clicked on somebody else. So there's a reason behind that, and you're pointing that out. So yeah, the the system recognizes that.

unknown 1:13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:27

So Linda commented, and this is a very good point. When the abuser is a pastor, their church is impacted for many years, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:35

Oh gosh. Yeah, in huge ways. Because think about this. This this person is a spiritual authority of sorts, even if you didn't like every sermon. I mean, who does? Um, but the if the per the person is gonna have a lot of impact. So you have a lot of people today, understandably so, that are deconstructing from their faith because of the bad acts of people in spiritual authority. Um, guess what? I would too. So I'm just gonna throw that out there. I'm a pastor. If I experienced that, um, I would be going through all sorts of issues because we so closely associate the person with the teachings of God, uh, even when the person isn't acting like God whatsoever. So the damage um has ramifications that will last generationally.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:18

Can I stop? The the the I love that deconstructing from the spiritual authority, the analog in law enforcement, is she just doesn't call the cops again. You know, maybe she called them once and they didn't come, or they can't, or they did come rather, and they made it worse. They she got a worse beating. You know, things got you know somehow incrementally worse. So is she gonna call again? And I I frequently inveigh about how can a chief, how can a sheriff go to sleep at night and put his or her head on a pillow, knowing that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of women in in their jurisdiction who don't call them, the people that are supposed to help, because they fear it will make it worse because of bad experience. Now, I can I can make a pretty good argument, my daughter is dead, Abby is dead, because China Ratner, the woman we talked about before, who was abused earlier, didn't call the cops the second time when he put his gun to her head and threatened to kill her dogs, her, and herself, and then himself, sorry. Yeah, the dogs, China, and then himself. Um she didn't bother to call, and why would she call? They'd already come and done nothing, nothing at all. So talk about deconstructing. You've you've just taken yourself out of the you know what's supposed to be the serve and protect uh you know organization. And I don't know of another, you know, like you said, you know, they dominate and control uh on the spiritual side your access to God, presumably. So who do you go to if on the other side, you know, another law enforcement agency, maybe the FBI? Good luck.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:00

Great points.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:03

I honestly feel like the four of us can talk for probably another three hours, but I know I'm looking at it, it's like, oh my gosh, we've been on here for an hour and a half.

Action Tools Document The Abuse EAA

SPEAKER_01 1:16:12

I know, I know. And and yeah, I guess we will have to wrap this up, but to kind of go to that point, literally, it's what Drew did. When Kathleen, I mean, in in in the trainings that I give, I use these, I use Kathleen as our example because had she had an EAA, which is where the work that I do for for document the abuse when you say what do you ask people to do, go look it up. Go tell somebody that you know about document the abuse, because we either, like I said, we all know somebody or somebody, or we can help somebody that's dealing with it because so many times it's being kept quiet for reasons that are inherent to them and that they know maybe it's to keep them safe. But this is also going to what can we do as a family around this? If I can't get my sister, who I know is being abused, to fill something out because she doesn't feel safe or she doesn't think it's abused, then maybe I can start to fill it out. So now I'm witnessing this and I'm gonna write this down. So now I may corroborate something when it finally gets to the point where now they have to make a decision. I can corroborate all these previous experiences because now I've written them down. And this is in any format that you witness this type of thing. But you know, I mean, that's one of the things. But going back kind of to Drew and and to Kathleen and what she went through, she called the cops numerous times. One of the times he had her on her stomach with her hands behind her back so that the police could arrest her when she got there. And they laughed and said, Well, you know how she is, building up that whole, you know how crazy she is. So she gets arrested for something he should have gotten arrested for in her own front yard, in front of her neighbors, in front of her children. So, how does she live beyond that in the neighborhood? How does she call the cops again when they were there and laughing? Goes back to why in the hell am I ever going to call anybody if this is what I'm gonna get is disbelief? Is this, you know, well, you should have called us before. Well, you how about you should not tell me what I should and shouldn't be doing? How about you just give me resources? That's what we are. We are a resource. We're a resource for law enforcement, we're a resource for the legal system, we're a resource for medical. I mean, in any form or fashion to which any, and I mean, we all know somebody. This can be used anywhere. This is an actionable item for everybody to walk away with. Go look up document the abuse, go tell somebody about the EAA. This is what drives what all of us do is the loss of someone we loved. It's watching these names go on every fucking day of the week. And they shouldn't be. This is what drives us because yes, it is. We've lost. I mean, I I and people will go, well, I didn't lose that much, or you know, or or there's some times where I feel like, you know, compared to what Bruce might be going through, I don't feel like, you know, uh what I went through was as much. But you don't compare what your traumas are. Your trauma is your trauma, is your trauma. Mine isn't any worse than anybody else's. So we had to kind of get out of that mode so that we can understand that we all suffer. When one person suffers, we all suffer. When a community is being shot at all the time, we can go back and look at where the domestic violence came in. And it there's statistics out there to bear it all out. So if we don't start dealing with the individuals and with the people in our community on a singular basis, we wind up dealing with it as a community, one way or the other. Whether it's in cost, in people, in money, in events that happen that then take on the whole community because it started in a home somewhere. And we can do something about that now. We have the kind of resources, we have the kind of people like Bruce, like Neil, like uh uh like Mark Wynn, like all of the Jim Schmidt. I mean, uh I I could name a thousand people that I've come across that are doing such wonderful work. Something I never thought I would be in the space of, because this is what you wind up doing when you come from this type of a situation. You don't know where you're you what you're doing, you just know you need to do something. I didn't know what I was gonna do, and I met Susan Murphy Milano and I figured out what I was gonna do, and here I am almost 20 years later. Just trying to help people, just like Bruce, just like Neil, just like you. Taking your experiences and making it worth something to someone else. Learn from us. That's all, you know, I mean, that's all we can do. That's what I wanted for this. I want people to learn from all these things that are going on and look for your resources. Loversrespect.org is a huge one. I use that a lot with kids because love is respect gives you the yellow, green, yellow, uh, green, and red lights. I mean, how much basic more basic can you get? I mean, it's like driver's ed. You know, we teach our kids drivers, this is nuts. We teach our kids driver's ed. They're in a 5,000-pound cart. They can kill themselves or someone else if they don't follow the rules of the road. We are the same thing. We are that 5,000 pound cart. If we are not taught how to function, how to protect ourselves, then either we're gonna wind up getting hurt or we're gonna hurt somebody else because we weren't taught the rules of the road. We weren't taught how to teach people. This is what we need to go back to. This is where our work lies. This is why we do what we do. And I will keep doing it until someone decides otherwise, whoever that may be.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:29

Yeah. Well, since we're on the topic of doing, and we're on the cusp of domestic violence awareness month, which is October, for those of you who may not know. Do you all have any suggestions of what people can do? Check out document the abuse. That's it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

Fabulous resource. Um uh churches, I I would love to encourage pastors to preach one sermon during domestic violence, violence awareness month on the subject of what scripture actually says about domestic abuse, because there are actually quite a few examples of it. Um, I preached one at my the last church where I served as a pastor. You can find it online at edgearora.com, and it's called Hope and Dry Ground.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:12

I'm gonna claim that. Um Yeah, I I've been working for a long time on a nine-part serialized podcast on the topic of police perpetrated domestic violence that includes uh Mark Wynn and you know, Dottie Davis and the woman I spoke of earlier, uh Crystal Brain Johnson's sister Julie, who raised Crystal's kids, is in it. And um, you know, it's heartbreaking and hopefully um out outraging. Uh I'd say it's outrageous. I I want it to be outrageous. It should make you outraged

Training Fixes And Funding The Toolkit

SPEAKER_03 1:23:48

and make you want to do something. And and there is something we want people to do, and the call to action is to uh fund Florida State University, FSU, many, many years ago uh pioneered, developed, and implemented an uh training program for law enforcement on domestic violence training, particularly a trauma-informed approach, and with a particular emphasis on police perpetrated domestic violence. Back then it was called OIDV, as I said. So it's the OIDV training toolkit. We have a proposal from them to do it again. They would convene a panel of experts from 360 degrees around the issue, study uh the uh changes to statutory frameworks, changes in technology. We talked about flock and the like. Uh all of those adaptations that have uh occurred over the nearly two decades since it was running, they would update it and and rewrite it, reformulate it, and put it out there, free resource for any law enforcement in the country. And back then they did it and tested it academically with you know some rigor and vigor, and it it passed the test. It it was proved to be effective in in combating PPDV. I am a lazy son of a gun. I don't want to do something that's already been done. You know, I don't want to have to do the work to invent a solution to a problem that's already been invented, and it was invented, and it did work. So why isn't it out there? Money. The funding dried up years and years ago, and nobody pushed it. There was no advocate, there was no pressure. And at the same time that I mentioned before that history with IACP thing going south, this thing went south thereafter. So now, with lovely folks working on the side of the angels like you and others, hopefully, our little podcast and some other efforts and uh irons on other fires, we're gonna push this thing back into the limelight, get that program up and running, and and save some lives.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:58

That's incredible. I think that people might be getting hungry. Um me.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:05

That's me.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:06

Did you guys hear my stomach?

SPEAKER_04 1:26:08

Me, I'm people.

unknown 1:26:09

I'm people.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:10

I think it's it's your sister, Ingrid, it's her. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:13

She probably guys. So, how about can you guys just go around one more time? If people want to learn more about you or follow what you're doing, just share any links or websites or whatever you feel comfortable with sharing.

Where To Find Help And Final Words

SPEAKER_00 1:26:30

Go, Neil.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:31

Um, calledtoPeace.org, C-A-L-L-E-D, T-O-P-E-A-C-E dot org. Um, it has all the resources that I mentioned earlier from advocacy to support groups. We call those restore groups, and then church partnerships. Um Church Partnerships is helping you, helping your churches understand domestic abuse and actually getting them trained. I do a half-day training for churches all over the country and I'm I'm traveling, I'm basically always either on Zoom or I'm traveling somewhere. So I have a very heavy travel schedule coming up. Um, and the vision that we have is to create regional moments where it's not just us going to one church to train, but to create moments where we pull together professionals from all over who are experiencing uh women who come to them to report domestic abuse. And we want to create uh peer-to-peer learning and cohorts and leadership panels and uh do this half-day training so that we're all starting to work from a fundamental understanding of what domestic abuse looks like.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:31

That's fantastic. Okay, Bruce?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:33

Um, you know, I'm just a dad, so I don't have a website or a platform really. Um I would urge people to visit me on LinkedIn. That's where I do most of my uh my uh advocacy. And hopefully soon you'll be able to listen to Broken Badge, the ninth part uh PPDV series coming out soon. In time to come out next month.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:55

Is that on all podcasts?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:57

It will be when it's yeah, supposedly ready to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:03

Bro Broken badge, you said?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:04

Broken badge, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:06

Wow, I will definitely be paying attention to that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:09

Thank you for that. Yeah, appreciate that. And I'll certainly send it to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:13

Yeah, send it to me. I'll put it up on on Document the Abuse, which everybody can go check out, our website. You can find us on LinkedIn, uh, Facebook, Instagram. I'm not sure what other things are out there, obviously. I have problems with technology, as we well know at this point. So I'll have to I have to get on. Thank goodness I have a social media manager. Um, Delilah, thank you. And to to do all these kinds of things. So I have obviously when left to my own devices, I'm not so good at it. But um, if everybody wants to check out document the abuse, the EAA, it is a free resource. We're gonna be putting up trainings here very soon. Um, we I am presenting at a conference uh next week at the National Center for the Victims of Crime about document the abuse and what it can do to help people uh about coercive control. I'm with another young lady uh from Empowered that deals with specifically with coercive control because a lot of times that's uh one of the elements that kind of gets overlooked in abuse type situations is how did how did they convince you to do that? How do how do they do that with you? And that's what coercive control is. So it's it's getting more into that. And so we're available. Um reach out to us on our contact page. Uh, but by all means, um look for us, you know. We wanna we wanna be there for you. We want to hear your stories, we want you to have a safe space to to tell what you what you have to tell and and not to worry. And it's safe, it's secure. You're the only one that sees it. They're never opened, they're never looked at. And it's just like a digital diary, a way to tell your story.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:56

Well, I appreciate each of you for lending your expertise and your insight on a very difficult topic. I appreciate everyone who tuned in live. I appreciate everyone who's going to be listening after the fact. Thank you for enduring all of our technical difficulties. And you know, I would hope to do something like this again now that we know how to do it. Maybe we're just gonna do it here. Yes, I think going forward, maybe it's just this. But um, yeah, I appreciate everybody. This was incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:29

Same. We appreciate you too. Thank you, Angry Sage. This was awesome. Awesome being with you. You guys, you guys all do such encouraging work, and I love hearing about it. And Norma, as you know, I talk about document the abuse at every church that I train, and I always will. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:46

Yes, and I I tracked this poor young man over here, Bruce Bieberdown, and and we got him involved in all of this. And now, thanks to LinkedIn, well, there's a whole group of us, you know, Neil, Bruce, like we're all getting connected and we're all getting in that space. And so if if you know of anybody that should know about us, send them, you know, our information too. You know, we we work in all kinds of ways. So okay. Thank you. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:16

Thanks so much, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:17

All right, have a great Labor Day weekend, and thanks for putting up with my nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:23

Our great pleasure. It was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:25

Thank you to Norma Peterson, Neil Shorey, and Bruce Bieber for allowing me to be part of this important conversation, and thank you to Document the Abuse for bringing us together. I'll be back next Wednesday with another episode for you. Until then, stay strong and always remember: wherever you are in your journey, you are not alone. To learn more, explore episode resources, browse a collections, or register as a guest, visit Beyond the Statistics Podcast.com. If today's episode meant something to you, please share it with someone who may need it. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and follow Beyond the Statistics on social media. Beyond the Statistics is a.5 Panoy production. Music written and performed by Tim Crow.